Inference and the Boundaries of Science
In class last night Allen went over inference and his views of the boundaries of science. He gave us the example of an individual coming upon the remains of what appeared to have been a house fire in the past. Without any prior knowledge of the event or eyewitnesses to question, one might infer any of three things:
1) accidental house fire
2) arson: purposeful house fire
3) no fire at all; setup job (for film, etc.)
A tentative explanatory filter with which to distinguish between those three causes:

But he suggested there is a problem from the very beginning. The first question– was this a real fire, or a setup job? can never be definitely answered. Considering a very powerful film crew, for instance, the setup would look almost like a real fire. Extrapolating slightly, given an omnipotent “designer”, could the scene not be exactly the same as what one would expect from a housefire?
Because there is no way of giving a definite answer based on empirical evidence– to which we, as scientists, are limited– we must throw out that whole node on our explanatory filter. Everything above the dotted line, at least, is outside our realm of knowledge.
I had a quarrel with much of this reasoning, though to begin with I ought to make a strong disclaimer that I’m not at all interested in defending “setup jobs”– I think they are highly uninteresting, for one thing, and not worth spending time in. But a “right” or at least convenient answer doesn’t make the logic that goes into an argument sound.
First, can we throw a question out of the realm of science because we will never be able to get a definite answer? Scarcely anything in science will ever be proved or disproved. In general, we don’t look for certain proofs, but simply for empirical evidence that might favor one or the other, so that we can make an inference to the best explanation. If the evidence is not clear, we often make choices based on conventions, such as parsimony.
If we cannot throw it out for lack of a definite answer, can we at least throw out that node for lack of empirical evidence either way? It is true that if the scene was designed (omnipotently) so that there was absolutely no evidence there had been no real fire, science could do nothing with the question. But we cannot assume a priori that all “setup jobs” have no emperical evidence available; there are a great many other possibilities besides an omnipotent designer who works to make things exactly the same. Consider, for example Einstein’s view: “Nature hides her secrets because of her essential loftiness, but not by means of ruse.”; or in another remark: “God is slick, but he ain’t mean.”
So while we can do away with a “absolutely perfect imitation” possibility as an option that could never have any emperical grounds, that is not justification for demarcating the entire first node out of our field of inquiry. In any research project you learn quickly that things are not always as they first appear. What seems on first analysis to be the remains of a fire may turn out on further investigation to hold evidence of a set-up job. What appears to have been designed may in fact be the product of chance and necessity, and what we are used to thinking of as the products of unguided evolution may contain evidence of purposeful design.
Refusing to consider questions is never good practice; we may reject explanations for lack of warrant, but ought never reject the investigation a priori.
Thanks, Hannah, for the diagram (it’s clearer than mine was last night) and for your analysis, above. However, I still stand by my position that, given a sufficiently powerful “designer,” a house fire (or anything else) can be simulated to such a degree (as Warren said, “right down to the subatomic particles) that there would be absolutely no way to distinguish between such a creation ex nihilo and the real thing.
That is, no amount of empirical evidence could make it possible to get past the first branch point in the explanatory filter in the diagram. Indeed, every piece of empirical evidence one could add would simply amplify one’s assertion of the hypothesis of the Designer’s omnipotence (”Amazing, S/He/It can f/make things right down to the quarks!”). For this reason, rather than agonize over our inability to get past the first branch point in the filter via empirical means, we simply agree to skip that step and move down to the second branch point.
I believe that this “agreement” is something with which most ID supporters would concur, as it gets us out of an empirically insoluble dilemma, and moves us along to the question of accident vs design. Darwin did essentially the same thing in the Origin of Species, by bringing in “the Creator” only at the very end, and by relegating Her/Him/It to setting the whole system in motion in the beginning. Having spent many years reading Darwin’s personal writings (correspondence mostly, but also some of the expurgated sections of his autobiography), it appears to me that Darwin became a Deist about the time he wrote the Origin (or in the process of doing so, which took two decades), but then slowly realized that Deism is essentially equivalent to agnosticism/atheism, as the Deity of Deism plays no part in the actual universe at all, beyond setting up the natural laws that govern it. I find myself in the same situation: assuming that the Deity of Deism exists gets one absolutely nowhere at all in science, and so (like most other scientists), I simply don’t go there anymore.
Comment by Allen MacNeill — June 28, 2006 @ 9:58 am
Scarcely anything in science will ever be proved or disproved.
This is plainly false unless you are proposing new definitions for “proved” or “disproved.” Do monkeys reproduce sexually? Yes. Science proved that. Do some bacteria reproduce by fission? Yes. Science proved that. Can white light be separated into its component colors? Yes. Science proved that. I could go on and on and on and on.
Let me give you some friendly advice, Hannah, at this early stage in our discussion. Re-read every sentence you type and ask yourself if you are distorting the truth to make your argument more compelling. If the latter, then rewrite the sentence. Hopefully, I do not need to explain why this is good practice.
On to the next tidbit:
Refusing to consider questions is never good practice; we may reject explanations for lack of warrant, but ought never reject the investigation a priori.
Well, here’s something else science has proved: living things exist for a finite time on earth until entropy catches up with them and they die.
Certain explanations for a given event are rejected by human beings because our prior experience shows that in all previous encounters with that event, other explanations were responsible. Since we don’t have time to definitely rule out every imaginable possibility, we stick with the possibilities that we have experience with.
Both you and I engage in this practical application of science every day of our lives, Hannah. That is how we survive and feed ourselves: by making decisions based on our learned past experiences, not by continuously evaluating every possible explanation for what our sense experiences.
Comment by Susan Percell — June 28, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
The problem with the contention that we could never know whether there had been a real fire instead of some kind of set-up is that it seems to rule out a great portion of the knowledge that we take ourselves to have. Could God have brought the world into existence just a moment ago but done so in such a way that we could not possibly discover that it was not billions of years but only seconds old? Of course. Do we thus not know that the universe is billions of years old? Surely not. Might God have so created the world that, though I am the only creature within it, yet my sequence of experiential states could not possible reveal this to me? Of course. Do I thus not know that I am not alone? Again surely not. I know that there are others.
Of course examples such a this could be multiplied. It might well be that our internal states - our conscious states - might be immune from such an attack. (Descartes thought that they were.) But if one bit of our knowledge of the external world falls to such an attack, all of its does.
MacNeill has in fact simply rehearsed a very old argument for a scepticism as regards the external world. The argument is purely philosophical in interest and thus I’m unsure of its relevance to the debate over ID.
Comment by Franklin Mason — June 28, 2006 @ 3:55 pm
This just goes to show that science is a pragmatic endeavor. As such, science doesn’t concern itself with eliminating all conceivable hypotheses, which is impossible anyway. You can never rule out The Matrix.
Comment by secondclass — June 28, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
Allen and Hannah,
(Bill Dembski just announced this weblog, so one can expect a possible deluge of participation. I thank you all for inviting participation, and I hope I can make a scholarly contribution to the discussion.)
Although I appreciate the attempt at rendering the explanatory filter (EF) for the “fire example”, it would be optimal to actually look at the traditional explanatory filter to learn it’s subtleties.
But before I go there, let me point out something crucial which the EF is NOT designed to detect:
Thus #3 can slip past the EF net, as #3, being a “set up job” could fall into the category of artifacts manufactured by “Masters of stealth intent on concealing their actions”. Also, #2 would fit this as it would be “Masters of stealth intent on concealing their actions” unless of course the arsonist left tell-tale signs of his design! So the question of interest for the EF is not for designed artifacts that may pass as accidental, but designed artifacts that have strong hallmarks of design.
Further, because natural or chance causes (like lightning, or household negligence) cannot be ruled out, a design inference will not be strongly made given the information in the example.
The question then comes, “how can we rule out natural causes?”. The answer is longwinded and must be saved for another day, but briefly we look to artifacts where asserting a natural cause would lead to a contradiction if we attempted to argue natural law was the source of the pattern. I (and cellular biologist Albert Voie) give Turing Machines as the classic example, but I save that for another day!
The EF has a very narrow and limited scope and domain of applicability. And further, it is easy to mis-apply it or pose inappropriate questions to it.
The EF in the class example is not being characterized in a way that the EF’s character and subtleties can be fully appreciated. I do not fault any one for that because ID literature is often misinterpreted even by IDers, and the enlightening passage was not from Design Inference, but one of Dembski’s other works, Mere Creation.
An online elaboration of the filter can be found at How do we detect design and Explantory Filter.
I should emphasize, as you will see in Dembski’s book, the EF represents ordinary practice of detecting design. It is nothing fancy, the major novelty is that mathematics was applied to show it’s applicability to biology, not just man-made artifacts.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — June 28, 2006 @ 4:41 pm
It would seem that the premise is conditioned on the assumption that an “omnipotent designer” would do such a thing. Why do we make that assumption? Let me ask this question: what if the “omnipotent designer” chose to create, ex nihilo, this fire scene in such a way that it would look like Dr. Allen MacNeill started the fire and was guilty of arson, would you, then, Dr. MacNeill raise this defense in court? And how would you prove it?
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — June 28, 2006 @ 6:18 pm
The idea that an onmipotent designer would necessarily make designs that are indistinguishable from non designs is a possibility, but seems unlikely.
This is not what ID proponents claim. ID claims to be able to detect the difference between design and undirected causes in some cases. It is of course possible for intelligent agents to design random sequences. In that case there can be no conclusion of design, unless the designer was directly observed.
Comment by Mark — June 28, 2006 @ 6:27 pm
I was a little vague in my last post.
I think the fire example mischaracterizes the concept of “explanatory filter” as it is used in modern ID literature.
One is certainly free to make up their own definition of the EF, but the EF in the class example does not represent the EF in ID literature.
If the EF in ID literature is being discussed, I encourage the readers to look at the traditional explanatory filter as defined by IDers which I provided links for.
Thus the above fire example should not be used to argue against the ID position as it does not represent a standard rendering of ID literature.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — June 28, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
I’d still have to disagree. I don’t think that the possibility of an omnipotent designer working to create an indistinguishable setup gives us the right to reject the entire question. And there is a possibility that there would be empirical evidence one way or another… a “non-perfect” setup, for instance, or external evidence that might support one choice over the other (though perfect is probably poor word choice in this setting, as it tends to imply intentions).
My argument is simply that each situation should be analyzed individually for the presence/absence empirical evidence which might help us answer that first question. That a perfect setup “is possible” won’t affect anything, since the hypothesis isn’t given any weight if it doesn’t have any basis or warrant. But an entire field shouldn’t be ruled out because one member is unfalsifiable.
Yes, I do agree that studying the first node is not very interesting, and whether it is ruled out or not is irrelevant to the question of design. My objections were just to your justification of the demarcation line.
Comment by Hannah — June 28, 2006 @ 6:43 pm
Hannah
I don’t think that the possibility of an omnipotent designer working to create an indistinguishable setup gives us the right to reject the entire question.
Well, as Allen pointed and other commenters have pointed out, it’s not a question of “rights.” You have the right to believe whatever you want. You can reject or accept whatever explanation you choose.
The issue is one of practicality and utility. If one favors the idea that invisible beings might be intelligently manipulating our reality for an unknowable purpose, then the burden is on the proponent to explain why this idea is useful to scientists. If the burden is not met, the proponent is free to continue to believe in the idea but should not expect others to pay attention to the idea “just because.”
For the record, creationist have been trying to convince scientists of a similar idea for over a century, a century in which science and technology is taken more seriously by more people than ever before in the history of humans. And they have failed rather spectacularly to convince the world’s scientists that the idea has any practical utility. That itself is evidence of something, but we can save that discussion for another day.
Comment by Susan Percell — June 28, 2006 @ 7:28 pm
Salvadore T. Cordova, IDEA GMU writes
The EF has a very narrow and limited scope and domain of applicability. And further, it is easy to mis-apply it or pose inappropriate questions to it.
Professor Dembski’s EF doesn’t seem very useful. Has Professor Dembski’s EF ever been used to show that a biological molecule was intelligently designed? Was that work published anywhere?
Comment by Susan Percell — June 28, 2006 @ 7:40 pm
Susan–
I’m using the terms in the basic logical sense, though I probably ought to have given some definitions and justification. I can provide the long drawn-out reasoning behind this if you want to dispute it, but really almost no one in the sciences anymore– at Cornell, at least– considers themselves in the buisness of proving anything– we’re all about looking for the best model or explanation. Nothing wrong with that; it’s just the way things are when you deal with fields outside mathematics.
There was no suggestion made of evaluating every possible explanation.
Poor wordchoice, maybe; but “right” in this context meant logical justification.
And thank you, btw, for your “friendly advice”… for the record, I stand behind all my statements.
Salvador–
Yes, I think the intention was just to provide a diagram of the thinking used to analyze the fire scene; the classical explanatory filter will be discussed later on in the semester (afaik).Thanks for your comments!
If anyone is interested in following along with our reading– we’re going through the first few chapters of Dawkin’s Blind Watchmaker right now, to be discussed/debated at class tonight.
Comment by Hannah — June 29, 2006 @ 8:29 am
Thank you for the clarification, Hannah. Indeed, the “explanatory filter” I presented during our first class was not intended to replicate Dr. Dembski’s. Rather, it was an attempt to show the kind of logic which can be used to construct such a filter, using a much simpler and (perhaps) more obvious example.
However, having been a volunteer firefighter and arson investigator in the past, collecting and analyzing evidence to distinguish between choices 1 and 2 (i.e. accidental versus purposeful house fire) is a far from trivial exercise. Fires are fires, and if they are sufficiently intense they destroy much of the empirical evidence that an arson investigator generally uses to distinguish between these two types of causes.
In the context of the evolution/design class, a very similar difficulty pertains: significant events in the evolution of life on Earth have happened so far in the past (or in such restricted time frames or locales) that virtually no empirical evidence remains to verify or falsify that such events even happened, much less how they happened. Darwin pointed out this problem in the context of the fossil record, and Eldrege and Gould amplified it in their paper on “punctuated equilibrium.”
As I have pointed out in other posts at other sites, the origin of the genetic code and translation apparatus (ribosomes, tRNA, etc.) may be a paradigmatic case. Given the universality of the code, it is very likely that it evolved in the most distant ancestors of all living organisms. Estimates of when this occurred place it somewhere between 3.5 and 4.5 billion years ago. There are virtually no rocks anywhere near the surface of the Earth that were formed during this period, and in any event fossilization of organic molecules is quite literally impossible. This is why, beginning in the 1950s, researchers into the origin of life have attempted to reconstruct this process in the laboratory, rather than try to find “fossil” evidence of it in the field.
However, given the problems noted above (in both fire investigation and reconstruction of very distant events in time) it may very well be the case that a full reconstruction of such events will be impossible. In the spirit of Hannah’s closing remark, however, I believe (along with almost all evolutionary biologists, but notably not Michael Behe and some other ID theorists*) that we should do our best to continue the search.
* Dr. Behe has publically asserted that his concept of “irreducible complexity” in biochemical systems should convince biochemists to give up on the search for the evolutionary derivation of such systems.
Comment by Allen MacNeill — June 29, 2006 @ 9:36 am
And yes, we will be analyzing Dembski’s explanatory filter later in the course, when we analyze and critique his book, The Design Inference, and related works.
Comment by Allen MacNeill — June 29, 2006 @ 9:39 am
There may be instances where absence of information is an insurmountable problem, and I don’t deny that. To set the record straight, the phrase, “we don’t know at this time if it’s designed or not”, is an acceptable outcome for an analysis, imho.
However, there are many designed artifacts where the manufacturing details are unavailable to the observer. The question arises how effectively can the design inference be made when the manufacturing details or the causal history is unavailable? We frequently infer design of human artifacts independent of knowing the manufacturing process. In fact, upon seeing a designed artifact, one will wonder, “it’s designed for sure, but how did the designer make it?” Thus the absence of precise history is not a universal principle against making design inferences.
Regarding the fire example, perhaps contrasting it with other examples might clarify the issue.
When looking at the after-fire-scene artifact, the artifact scene does not have a strong appearance of design. In contrast, biological systems have a strong appearance of design, so much so explanations were formulated where Mind did not have proximal involvement nor an empirically detectable involvement (at least that what the theory claims).
“Strong appearance of design” is a qualitative phrase, to quantify it under the rigors of math requires work, but once this is done, the questions of the adequacy of the blind watchmaker are more amenable to scientific evaluation.
Let me say, even if one does not accept the ultimate claims of ID, I think ID literature has gone a long way to helping formalize what Dawkins calls “the appearance of design”.
The reason I bring that up regarding the fire example is that in questions of causal agency, absent more details, the fire example is not very amenable to quantification, nor does it have the strong appearance of design, and thus is not the best candidate for scientific inferences of design. Candidates for design should have:
1. strong appearance of design
2. the appearance of design is at least partially quantifiable, not a purely qualitative impression
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — June 29, 2006 @ 11:18 am
Salvador said: I should emphasize, as you will see in Dembski’s book, the EF represents ordinary practice of detecting design.
I personally have never used the EF to detect design, nor do I know of anyone who has. Not even Dr. Dembski, to my knowledge.
Comment by secondclass — June 29, 2006 @ 11:26 am
Except that ordinary people don’t have PHDs in mathematics :)
I think what Salvador meant is that the filter is based on the way every person naturally makes a design inference in his/her everyday life — but then tries to translate that into numbers.
Comment by Brian K — June 29, 2006 @ 1:01 pm
Hi Hannah.
You wrote
no one in the sciences anymore– at Cornell, at least– considers themselves in the buisness of proving anything– we’re all about looking for the best model or explanation.
Oh, so you *were* using the term “proof” in some sort of strict mathematical sense. That is what I suspected. That is a strange way to use the term in the context of what most scientists actually do and how they talk about their work.
As I indicated in my earlier comment, it’s misleading to do claim otherwise. Scientists at Cornell and elsewhere prove things all the time, every day. They propose hypotheses, test them, and make observations. If those observations are reproducible, the scientist has proven something. It may not be a big deal and it may not garner a Nobel prize, but scientists can and do prove things all the time.
I can provide you with specific examples if you need them, of course … actually I already did, in my earlier comment.
For the record, I am a molecular biologist and I’ve been at it for about twenty years now. I know what scientists do and I know how they talk about what they do. I attend scientific conferences and I listen to scientists regularly. They use the term “prove” all the time. Try a PubMed search. You’ll see what I mean. Maybe Cornell is different…? At least one Cornell science Ph.D. I know agrees with me on this subject.
And thank you, btw, for your “friendly advice”
You’re welcome! It’s probably the most important advice I can give to people who are seeking credibility in science. The other important advice I would give is to address any obvious unfavorable facts directly, rather than wait for someone else to raise those facts to your attention.
Comment by Susan Percell — June 29, 2006 @ 1:51 pm
Hannah
I just did a PubMed search and found dozens (maybe 100?) of recent papers from Cornell scientists which prove things.
For example, Henchliffe at Weil Medical College of Cornell University writes, “Selegiline orally disintegrating tablets prove to be clinically effective and safe in patients with moderately advanced Parkinson’s disease.”
Do you disagree with Henchcliffe’s claims?
I don’t have time to read through all the abstracts. A search of the terms “prove” or “proof” in recent abstracts in the PubMed database, without limiting the search to Cornell, pulls up about 50,000 references.
Comment by Susan Percell — June 29, 2006 @ 2:07 pm
This is all water under the bridge. Whether it is possible to detect a “set-up” perpetrated by a designer or not, is not a valid question. Why? Because we simply DO NOT HAVE the necessary tools to detect such a thing at our disposal. That is not to say that such detection may not someday be possible. However, it is stupid, useless, and irresponsible to philosophize about this question, because it simply cannot be answered to anyone’s satisfaction at this time.
Comment by Will Schubert — June 29, 2006 @ 6:27 pm
Prof. MacNeill wrote: “Assuming that the Deity of Deism exists gets one absolutely nowhere at all in science, and so (like most other scientists), I simply don’t go there.”
But I think (tentatively) that you DO assume that the Deity exists, anytime you do science. Science rests upon the assumption that the physical world is “rational” and intelligible by us. And I think this assumption is based upon a deeper assumption: that the physical world was created by a rational Deity, who also created us in the Deity’s “image”, so that we could understand the world. Some have argued that modern science owes its birth to such an assumption. And I think we continue to make it, whether or not we are conscious of doing so, every time we do science.
Comment by Bilbo — June 29, 2006 @ 8:28 pm
Ah, the ‘explanatory filter’
A few observations, if I may.
Firstly, it is a fallacy of the Holmesian order:
http://www.frankston.com/Public/Default.aspx?zz=xcs&Script_name=/default.aspx&name=HolmesianFallacy
The false positives have been noted – similar thinking has histrorically led us to think ‘the giants causeways’ was in fact built by giants and that Mars was populated by, erm, canal builders. [the problem with (1-x) type arguments is that man does not and cannot know “1” (everything BUT x)]. It works if you’re omniscient, but then you know what x is already…
Second, it’s never been used. Please don’t offer the include that is ‘the spontaneous generation’ of the bacterial flagella. Because evolution doesn’t require spontaneous generation.
http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser/03_Areas/evolution/perspectives/vantillecoli_2002.pdf
IDists in their many blogs often tout,” this would be a perfect application for the explanatory filter”, but they never get around to using it.
They do however use this Explanatory filter:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2006/05/ef20.gif
Ask yourselves why:
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/02/the_wisdom_of_p.html
Isn’t the poster child for IC and the main target for SC? It seems far more remarkable and unlikely that cute little flagellas. But it doesn’t nudge you along to the conclusion of a loving, Christian god…
Comment by Rich — June 30, 2006 @ 11:37 am
Well, well, well, if it isn’t the old Omphalos argument. Was Philip Henry Gosse given due credit?
Omphalos: An Attempt to Untie the Geological Knot (1857). That was two years before…
Comment by ivy privy — June 30, 2006 @ 4:06 pm
If it takes ‘billions of cells to fail on the way’, then we’re dealing with a ‘random’ process. The more important question is what triggered all of this. Why don’t other human cells–having the same genome as the immunce system cells–mutate their proteins? Either something is ‘triggering’ the mutation of the ISCs (immune system cells), or something is preventing such mutations in the other human cell types, or both. All of this is suggestive of some kind of algorithm.
Let’s also note that the mutations process in ISCs is ‘goal oriented’; namely, the blocking of the receptor site for the targeted pathogen. Again, suggestive of an algorithm.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — June 30, 2006 @ 5:29 pm
I am curious, given the conclusion of Allen MacNeill that there is “no way of giving a definite answer based on empirical evidence”, what is it he thinks fire investigators use to determine the cause of a fire? Magic?
Comment by jhudson — June 30, 2006 @ 6:39 pm
and Susan Responded
From Understanding Evolution, Berkeley
Just to set the record straight. :-)
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — June 30, 2006 @ 8:06 pm
JHudson wrote:
“I am curious, given the conclusion of Allen MacNeill that there is “no way of giving a definite answer based on empirical evidence”, what is it he thinks fire investigators use to determine the cause of a fire? Magic?”
And I am equally curious where in any of the posts I have made to this (or any other website) you have found that quote. I have only posted three times in this thread, and there is nothing in any of my posts that remotely resembles the direct quote listed above.
On the contrary, the point I have consistently been trying to make is that, in science (as in arson investigation), the only kind of evidence that is considered definitive is empirical evidence (i.e. evidence either derived directly by observation or inferred from indirect observations). Speculation is fun, especially when one is standing at the bar late at night, but it doesn’t get one published in a peer reviewed journal (not in the sciences, anyway).
Indeed, once again I find it necessary to emphasize that this is one of the most obvious and important differences between the huge corpus of published research supporting evolutionary theory and the miniscule collection of speculative hypotheses and computer models that characterize virtually all of the ID literature to date. To state it bluntly: real scientists (like real fire investigators) get their hands dirty, in the field and in the lab, and publish research reports that present in detail the empirical evidence that either validates or falsifies their hypotheses. The world is still waiting for such work to begin to trickle out of the clositered environs of the Discovery Institute. And waiting and waiting and waiting…
Perhaps they’re too busy publishing press releases to do any science?
Comment by Allen MacNeill — June 30, 2006 @ 9:35 pm
Prof. MacNeill writes:
Yes, I’m waiting for Mike Gene’s book to come out. He’s promised for years that he has a number of ideas for ID research. I’m hoping that his book will contain some of those ideas. At $24.95, it better.
Meanwhile, I’m not sure I buy the objection that ID scientists aren’t doing the research. My hunch is that the problem isn’t the lack of research, but how to interpret the research already done. For example, in Behe’s Blackbox, he credits the research done by thousands of biochemists with proving ID. Well, they certainly weren’t trying to prove ID. So what did Behe have in mind? It seems he meant that given the proper interpretation of the results of their research, the case for ID had been made. One might disagree with Behe’s interpretation of the results. But I think we can understand his point. So perhaps the question isn’t a lack of research, but how best to interpret it.
Hmmm…I previewed this post. Obviously I don’t know how to get the block quotations and empahsis things right. Computer illiterate philosophy major from the 70s, here.
Note from moderator: Sorry it’s complicated. I’ve sent you a message with instructions
Comment by Bilbo — July 1, 2006 @ 4:56 pm
Typical repsonse for ID. When it suits them anything is claimed to be an example of the design inference but when it shows how vacuous ID is, it suddenly is claimed to be misrepresenting the explanatory filter.
Are any details presented as to why? Of course not.
Remember that ID cannot claim that science works to support ID. Anytime science explains something ID has to retreat…
Sal is right though, the Explanatory Filter is often misconstrued or misinterpreted, even by Dembski who has yet to apply it in a non-trivial manner to any relevant biological system. And no, strawmen calculations do not count. I am sure that Sal would agree as he so strongly objects to the use of strawmen?
So when can we see ID accept that
1. The explanatory filter is inherently unreliable
2. The explanatory is thus ‘useless’ (to quote Dembski)
3. The explanatory filter does not provide us with any explanations of how it happened, it is at most an argument from ignorance
4. Since it is an argument from ignorance and since ID fails to present its own hypotheses, it cannot even compete with the null hypothesis of ‘we don’t know’.
5. ID has yet to apply the explanatory filter in any non trivial manner to a biological system.
6. ID has yet to explain that why CSI (complex specified information) goes to zero whenever science explains something but that whenever ID ‘explains’ something it does not go to zero…
ID is based on such flawed foundations that its claims are useless.
And for those IDers who still believe that a Design Inference has any relevance to ID, let’s look at what Dembski had to say. Nichols observes that
Source: Ryan Nichols, Scientific content, testability, and the vacuity of Intelligent Design theory, The American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly, 2003 ,vol. 77 ,no 4 ,pp. 591 - 611
Seems quite a devastating concession. Design should not be confused with agency. So a design inference basically cannot be used by itself to help determine if intelligent agencies were involved…
How many IDers are even aware of this major concession by Dembski? Can this deficiency be resolved? Or is it an inherent flaw in the design inference?
Comment by Pvm — July 2, 2006 @ 4:44 pm
PvM, read the Epilogue in Dembski’s book. If you still think there’s a “major concession”, we can discuss it.
Comment by Bilbo — July 2, 2006 @ 6:52 pm
I appreciate the attempt to obfuscate the issue by raging against the Discovery institute, but it avoids the real issue, that being whether there can be empirical means by which one can determine if the intention of a mind was a cause in an event.
You used the cause of a fire as an example; ‘real fire investigators’ act on the idea that observations and tests can determine whether or not someone intended to set a fire, or whether or not it happened incidentally from unguided causes. Isn’t this a fairly obvious example of empirical criteria being applied as a test for intelligent causation?
Comment by jhudson — July 3, 2006 @ 12:07 am
jhudson wrote
Like Professor MacNeill, I am a long-time volunteer firefighter and for a couple of decades was an officer responsible in part for ascertaining the causes of fires. In ascertaining the cause of a fire one surely uses empirical data to inform the investigation — the report of the first officer on the scene concerning the area of fire involvement and the appearance of the flames and smoke; the likely point(s) of origin deduced from the pattern of burning and differential charring and other signs; evidence of the presence or absence of accelerants; and so on.A substantial part of the investigation focuses on the mechanics and dynamics of the fire. We do that because we know a lot about how natural causes initiate fires, and we also know a lot about how and why humans initiate fires. So with the two hypotheses — natural vs. intentional — in mind (and not forgetting the hypothesis of human-caused accidental fire), we examine the evidence, looking for indications that tend to differentiate between the hypotheses. For example, the presence of accelerants and multiple initiation points are strong cues to intentional human action because we know from experience that those are the kinds of things that humans tend to do when starting fires but that ‘natural’ causes don’t. They differentiate between the two hypotheses because we know a fair amount about the evidence that distinguishes between them. They’re analogous to looking for evidence of the activity of the putative designer of biological phenomena — signs of the designer’s manufacturing processes. ID offers none of the latter kind of evidence, because ID provides no hypotheses about how a designer might manufacture its designs in matter and energy. We can’t look for evidence of the activity of the designer.
Furthermore, in investigating a fire we also look directly for evidence bearing on intentions that might indicate arson. For example we might look for financial straits coupled with a new insurance policy, and for valuables removed from the structure shortly before the fire, and for witnesses to pre-fire activity around the structure. That is, in addition to looking for physical evidence in the fire building itself that differentiates between ‘natural’ and human-caused fires, we look for evidence bearing directly on putative arsonists’ intentions because we know a fair amount about human motives.
Intelligent design has never ever done anything resembling the latter part of arson investigation — in fact, IDists deny that it’s even possible. ID denies that the motives and methods of the intelligent designer are accessible to scientific investigation, and thus any analogy between ID and arson investigation is invalid. Dembski explicitly rules out investigation of the intentions and identity of the designer. In contrast, in arson investigation those issues are among the primary paths of investigation.
Along with several other departments my department fought a large fire a month ago, having been called by a neighboring department for mutual aid. That fire has been determined to be arson, and some days later suspects were taken into custody and charged. Had the investigation of that fire followed the intelligent design approach to arson investigation and focused solely on the physical remains of the building itself, not considering what we know about ‘natural’ causes and intentional fires and about how humans behave, I can say with high confidence that the fire would not have been classed as arson. It would have gone into the books as “undetermined”. But because arson investigation concerns itself with patterns of actions displayed by humans and with the intentions and identity of potential arsonists, they got nailed.
RBH
Comment by Richard B. Hoppe — July 3, 2006 @ 4:11 am
Let me put my previous post more succinctly:
In arson investigation we look for evidence bearing on how an arsonist did it, why an arsonist did it, and who the arsonist is. The day that ID “researchers” substantively address those three issues in biology I’ll take their efforts seriously.
RBH
Comment by Richard B. Hoppe — July 3, 2006 @ 4:37 am
Susan Purcell says:
“This is plainly false unless you are proposing new definitions for “proved” or “disproved.” Do monkeys reproduce sexually? Yes. Science proved that. Do some bacteria reproduce by fission? Yes. Science proved that. Can white light be separated into its component colors? Yes. Science proved that. I could go on and on and on and on.”
You have to be careful with this argument Susan. It’s usually part of a tactic commonly employed by the ID crowd to deliberately mix up the ‘common’ (and legal) usage of the word ‘prove’ (beyond reasonable doubt) with the mathematical ‘proof’. So they argue for example that ‘evolution cannot be proven’. And in the mathmatical sense they are correct, in that nothing in the real world can be ‘proven’ with absolute certainty (although it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt).
I was also taught that science cannot be ‘proven’ - exactly as Hannah says above, science is about the best explanation that fits the available facts. If we have a high degree of certainty about a set of explanations then they can become a scientific theory, like gravity or evolution.
See here for more: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA202.html
I usually find it easier (in order to avoid confusion) to not use the word ‘prove’ in a scientific context, just as - where possible - I try to avoid anthropomorphising the mechanisms of evolution.
A similar tactic by the ID crowd is to state that ‘evolution is just a theory’ which deliberately confuses the colloquial meaning of theory with the scientific usage of the word.
Comment by Tim Hague — July 3, 2006 @ 10:41 am
Before any of those issues can be addressed, we have to acknowledge two things; first, that it is reasonable to consider that someone was responsible for the fire, and secondly, that there can be a means by which to determine whether or not someone did so, as opposed to fire simple occuring naturally.
Until the science community is willing to seriously consider these possibilities, it is virtually impossible to proceed with the other considerations, as answering the other questions rely on these two issues being established.
Comment by jhudson — July 3, 2006 @ 11:32 am
Science does seriously consider these possibilities. Design is always a possibility. Until ID however is willing to consider means, motives, opportunity, it will fail miserably in its attempts. Remember that science is willing to listen to explanations, and that it is ID which refuses to present the necessary details.
William A. Dembski Organisms using GAs vs. Organisms being built by GAs thread at ISCID 18. September 2002
The suggestion that science rejects design a-priori is clearly wrong, it rejects it a-posteriori because 1) plausible explanations exist 2) no relevant ID hypotheses exist.
And don’t confuse ‘evolution cannot explain ‘X'’ with a viable ID hypothesis either.
Comment by Pvm — July 3, 2006 @ 12:39 pm
As Richard Hoppe noted, we can recognize arson because we know what the work of arson looks like. Likewise, we can recognize design in our everyday lives because we know what the work of human designers looks like. Without such knowledge, we can say nothing.
Design is defined as something done deliberately by an agent. To detect design, then, we must — absolutely must — know something about both purpose and agent, even if the most we can say is “looks sort of like what this known agent with purpose did. If, as many ID advocates do, you rule out all knowledge of agent and purpose, then, quite simply, you are not talking about design. You may be using the word, but you have given it a different meaning, or no meaning at all.
It may be instructive to reformat the argument from ignorance (”We don’t know of any other reason, therefore the reason is this”) as a formal flowchart, and see how closely it compares with Dembski’s Explanatory Filter.
I might also note (though perhaps I am skipping ahead in the class) that it is hardly surprising that life looks, in some ways, like the design we are familiar with, because design itself is an evolutionary process which relies on modification and selection. To the extent that life looks designed, it is likely because life and design share a common process.
Comment by Mark Isaak — July 3, 2006 @ 12:39 pm
How can the epilogue affect the major concession? As others like Elsberry have already pointed out the step from ‘design’ to ‘designers’ does not allow one to eliminate natural designer as the ‘agent’.
It is important that ID proponents recognize that the design inference is hardly as robust as some have made it to be. Del Ratzsch warned:
(Del Ratzsch Nature design and science)
If there are any particulars that you would like to discuss that you believe help address these shortcomings then please share them with us. Could you also explain why Dembski saves all this to his epilogue? I am sure that people would appreciate a more detailed description of how Dembski addressed his major concession?
Surely I assume you can oblige?
Comment by Pvm — July 3, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
Again, the “means, motives, opportunity” are secondary to the tests involved in determining whether or not an intelligent agent was involved.
Take transgenics; there is some concern now that genetically modified organisms might establish themselves in the wild, crossbreeding with non-modified relatives. If perchance a genome was significantly modified by human agency and established a wild population, how would we know it didn’t just develop ‘naturally? Could tests be devised to determine whether that is the case? In developing such tests, would it be a requirement that the “means, motive, and opportunity” be established before any investigation had begun?
In short, do we have to know that Scientist X desired to make a particular change in a genome Y for reason Z in order to begin to investigate whether a genome was indeed modified by human agency?
Comment by jhudson — July 3, 2006 @ 1:40 pm
RBH’s arson investigation discussion is a good example of testing for intelligent causation. RBH a priori presumes JHudson’s essential observation:
ID makes the essential assumption that intelligent causation may be possible, and then models and tests for it. If intelligent causation is a priori excluded, you cannot test for it. This is at the heart of the conflict between advocates of evolution and ID.
On RBH’s questions, it may be possible to distinguish IFan arsonist caused a fire, without determining HOW it was done (though identifying HOW is good evidence for IF). The arson site itself may provide no evidence on WHY the arson. ID does not presume but may model and test for goals. ID only presumes that in situ evidence rarely indicates WHO the arsonist is. Such information is often obtained from other sources. Thus Dembski’s focus on probalities relative to the Universal Probability Bound as empirical tests for intelligent causation.
Comment by David L. Hagen — July 3, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
Comment by secondclass — July 3, 2006 @ 2:30 pm
Comment by secondclass — July 3, 2006 @ 2:33 pm
jhudson wrote
We determine IF an arsonist caused a fire precisely by examining evidence bearing on HOW the fire started. I can’t think of a way to determine IF in the absence of a viable explicit or implicit hypothesis about HOW.RBH
Comment by Richard B. Hoppe — July 3, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
So you are saying if one found transgenic Taiwanese “glow pigs” in the wild, there is no way to tell if their genetics had been manipulated in some way minus information on the methods of Taiwanese labs?
Comment by jhudson — July 3, 2006 @ 4:01 pm
PvM,
I thought about Dembski’s Epilogue all day. It is very much what Jules (that exceptionally brilliant member of ISCID, whom I know as well as I know myself), was trying to get at in his objection years ago about finding a specified complex pattern (such as the prime number sequence) in the Cosmic Background Radiation. In his Epilogue, Dembski uses the example of Alice and Bob. Bob flips the coin 41 times, and Alice (without any cheating) correctly predicts the outcome 40 times. Yet we are not ready to say this is a case of intelligent design. Dembski says that parapsychologists might credit something called the “psi” factor to explain it. But we wouldn’t necessarily find this satisfactory. And so we are left with a puzzlement. And so specified complexity gives us a pattern that excludes chance, and seems to exclude necessity, but doesn’t necessarily imply intelligent agency.
So the next question should be, Why doesn’t specified complexity always imply intelligent agency? What’s missing? What’s needed? And as far as I know, Dembski never really goes there. Which is too bad. I think that if he had, it would have helped made clear much of the controversy between proponents and critics of ID. Jules has tried to get at the heart of the issue in a couple of threads at ISCID, and I took a stab at it at The Design Paradigm. But yes, I would say this is a “major concession” by Dembski, and needs to be addressed.
Should I try here? Or is there a better place to discuss this at length?
Comment by Bilbo — July 3, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
On RBH - First eliminate all natural causes by natural forces, preferably within the Universal Probabilty Bound. Eg Evidence: Multiple ships catch fire in a bay, outer surface of each ship is charred but not interior. BUT No evidence of lightning; air temperature Archimedes Death Ray: Idea Feasibility Testing
Secondclass:
If a measured pattern could not be caused by random causes of natural forces within the Universal Probabilty Bound, then infer that it is not a natural cause.
If we can identify codes, patterns, methods such as known to be associated with intelligent causes, then infer such causes. e.g. if I see a coded sequence of prime numbers I would infer an intelligent cause, as no known stochastic natural cause forms a prime number series -WITHOUT knowing HOW the sequence is formed. If lightning bolts give a morse code message, I infer an intelligent cause, not natural stochastic processes.
Comment by David L. Hagen — July 3, 2006 @ 4:45 pm
Here is the link to MIT: Archimedes Death Ray: Idea Feasibility Testing
Comment by David L. Hagen — July 3, 2006 @ 4:47 pm
If I want to determine whether a pig is a product of a Taiwanese lab, then I have to know something about Taiwanese labs. If I want to know whether it’s bioengineered, then I have to know something about bioengineering. If I know nothing about bioengineering, then the most I can determine is that the pig is not a product of any known natural processes.
Comment by secondclass — July 3, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
On the contrary, they help determine the plausibility of intelligent design and thus are essential in avoiding false positives. For instance, in the past people believed that Gods causes lightning. We all know that this was based on ignorance and such false positives, could have been avoided by comparing the probability of ‘we don’t know’ with the probability of the design hypothesis.
Now we have a known genetic pattern which is known to have been designed. In other words, we can a-priori determine the likelihood of ‘the sequence was designed’ because we have the information about the designer and the design event.
Means, motives, opportunity all matter. Let me explain. In order to be able to make the a priori claim that design is likely, we have to know that the designer(s) have the means to design the particular system. In addition, we have to know motive namely to improve a particular feature by manipulation of genes. Since manipulations are needed we know that likely, such changes may not have taken place in nature, or we would not have to design for them.
So yes, knowing this makes a major difference. Let’s say that we know that humans actually have tried countless times to create the gene and failed. What would this do for the design inference? We may conclude that it is safest to assume that we just don’t know because we have determined that a design inference has a low probability.
Constraining the hypothesis is essential for the reliability of the filter. And if the filter catches false positives it basically becomes useless, unless one can provide at least some guidance as to the probability of the inference. ID, by refusing to address the nature of the designer has no way to constrain the hypothesis.
Hope this clarifies my position. In fact, sometimes Dembski smuggles in this knowledge about the designer into the specification, such as knowing in the case of Caputo that he would likely be cheating.
Comment by Pvm — July 3, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
So intelligence is not a natural cause? What is it then? And how has this been established? In fact, I’d argue that until ID can address and resolve this, ID has no reason to use the eliminative filter approach.
Comment by Pvm — July 3, 2006 @ 5:52 pm
You’re taking Dembski’s purely eliminative approach. Notice that you said “First, eliminate…,” but you never mentioned a second step.
If the environment is such that it seems very unlikely that natural causes could start a fire, we still need to consider the likelihood of the alternative hypothesis. For instance, what if the bay has been engulfed for several days in a toxic gas that kills humans immediately, regardless of any known breathing apparatus? According to your eliminative method, this fact is irrelevant. That obviously makes no sense.
Granted, this is a contrived example. In most realistic scenarios, human intervention is a live possibility (an important exception being prebiotic earth). The point is that we can’t base our conclusions solely on the low likelihood of an event under a single null hypothesis.
So, in other words, the design inference is based in part on our knowledge of human artifacts. Now we’re in agreement. Obviously a long sequence of prime numbers doesn’t come from a stochastic process, but how certain are you that it can’t come from a natural process?Comment by secondclass — July 3, 2006 @ 6:09 pm
David L. Hagen wrote
Sure thing, if you’ll let me know how one lines up all potential natural causes, known and unknown, so one can eliminate them.RBH
Comment by Richard B. Hoppe — July 3, 2006 @ 6:21 pm
David Hagen wrote:
Then 2ndClass responded:
Yes, David has hit on what is probably the important principle missing from Dembski’s Filter. And at least 2ndClass seems to agree. Thus the lightning bolts that are in the pattern of morse code are at one end of the spectrum. I don’t think anyone would question that they were intelligently designed, even though we don’t know how it was done, or by whom. At the other end, we might have Dembski’s example of Alice correctly predicting the 40 coin tosses. We know it’s specified and complex, and we even have a plausible intelligent agent (Alice), but since it isn’t a pattern we normally associate with intelligent causes, we hesitate to infer intelligent design.
Between these two extremes lies the case of intelligent design in biological organisms. As 2nd Class pointed out at ISCID, part of the causal story is missing. For people who reject intelligent design, the causal story is missing the details of how various complex features came about. For people who accept intelligent design, the causal story is missing a connection between the designed objects and a designer.
One can understand why each side rejects the others explanation, while accepting their own. (Time for big group hug, here, guys. :)
Comment by Bilbo — July 3, 2006 @ 6:51 pm
For the record, what I reject is the ID methodology. Where would we be if Franklin, Ampere, Tesla, Maxwell, et al had decided that electricity is caused by an inscrutable intelligent being? Probably not in front of computer monitors.
Comment by secondclass — July 3, 2006 @ 7:30 pm
2ndClass wrote:
You think those guys would have looked for a non-intelligent cause of lightning bolts in the pattern of morse code?
Comment by Bilbo — July 3, 2006 @ 7:32 pm
For the record, I’m not asking scientists to accept ID. And I’m not asking them to give up looking for non-intelligent causal explanations of life and evolution. All I’m asking is that they understand how some of us can see ID as a rational alternative.
And I’m also asking ID proponents to understand the rationality of ID critics.
If and when one or the other is “proved” (or whatever science allows us to call it), then the other position will become irrational. Until then, I propose a cease-fire.
Comment by Bilbo — July 3, 2006 @ 8:00 pm
That may not be possible in the case of fire artifacts, but it is possible in the case of biological Turing Machines. Assuming a natural cause (known or yet-to-be discovered) yields a contradiction, thus the cause can not be natural (natural as in law-like and subject to scientific inquiry). That was sketched out in cellular biologist Albert Voie’s peer-reviewed pro-ID paper.
One then has the problem of describing what the non-natural cause is:
1. intelligent
2. non-natural, but it still had to be dumb since intelligence agency is not scientific (in the eyes of some)
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 3, 2006 @ 8:14 pm
Salvador wrote
I assume that Sal is referring to this paper, published in a math, stats, and physics-oriented journal, not a biological journal. One wonders who the “peers” were who reviewed it. It appears to be a fancy restatement of Cartesian dualism with some references to Godel’s incompleteness theorem thrown in for seasoning.In any case, the paper doesn’t establish anything about “biological Turing machines”. Turing machines are very simple devices. Here, for example, is a very simple Turing machine.
RBH
Comment by Richard B. Hoppe — July 3, 2006 @ 10:07 pm
2ndClass:
Laws of natural forces are finite and cannot include prime numbers.
“Glow pigs” are the evidence. (“Taiwanese” is a red herring.)
Killing humans neither eliminates intelligent causation nor proves natural causation.
ID methodology assumes search for natural laws but considers some evidence is better explained by modeling for intelligent causation.
Pvm:
“means, motive, and opportunity” are necessary to convict of murder, not to infer intelligent causation. Eliminating natural causation to a high probability implies intelligent causation (by definition, I know of no other option.) Then showing similarity with human causation positively infers intelligent causation.
The origin of biotic life and origin of intelligence are primary issues for origin theories to explain or posit. As I understand Neo-Darwinism, the origin of biotic life is presumed (definitely no serious models yet), and the Primary Axiom of Random Mutation and Natural Selection is assumed to generate all subsequent life including humans. Intelligence arising from abiogenesis and natural forces appears to have been presumed, not proven. I’m still skeptical. e.g., John C. Sanford in Genetic Entropy (2005) finds that all the major population models show accumulating genetic entropy and degradation, not increase in function.
Cornell class: Are these comments useful or too much? Look forward to more of yours.
Comment by David L. Hagen — July 3, 2006 @ 10:39 pm
Greetings RBH,
Thank you for responding to my comments, but I think non-ID position is very difficult to defend in the case of origin-of-life. The original post made passing hints regarding the difficulty of eliminating chance or natural causes. The origin-of-life problem is an ideal place to see where both are rejected.
That is correct, and that is not a strike against it, imho. There is no reason to suppose that biologists will necessarily be in a better position to understand self-referential Turing Machines, than physicists, mathematicians, computer scientists, information scientistists, or engineers (Voie also has a background in Artificial Intelligence in addition to a PhD in cellular biology).
What is in question is not just an ordinary Turing Machine, bu self-referential Turining machine.
I think the argument that Turing Machine’s are trivial is not sustainable in as much as making 200 coins heads is trivial for us but not for mindless forces. Failure of the Origin-of-life community to create a Turing Machine through mindless forces only reinforces Voie’s claims.
And, Voie is not the only one to have identified issue. A paper which appeared in Cell Biology by Trevor’s and Abel identified the same problem and then some:
Chance and necessity do not explain the origin of life
They echo Voie’s reasoning with respect to the Genetic Code, and thus rule out naturalistic (as in law like) mechanisms:
We thus have, in the first life, something, that by definition resists naturalistic origins. It is not a matter of ignorance that this conclusion is arrived at, it simply that the assumption of naturalistic origns results in a contradiction, and thus naturalistic origins cannot even in principal be the cause.
I have left you room however, if one wishes to say that causes are still un-intelligent causes. As I pointed out, one has 2 options:
1. invoke an intelligent cause
2. invoke a non-natural mindless cause
I presume, the non-IDers will elect #2 by defualt.
Lest I be accused of equivocation of the word “naturalistic”, let me point out if that if by naturalistic one means no involvement by the supernatural, that results in a either a meaningless definition or a mmetaphysical definition. In either case, such a definition of “naturalistic” is not scientific.
In contrast, the definition for naturalistic that I gave (law like) is consistent with naturalistic in ID literature, and further, it is scientifically meaningful versus a metaphysical defintion (”naturalistic” = anything but intelligence or God).
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 3, 2006 @ 10:59 pm
Just a thought that gets back to the original blog entry, and maybe gives Allen some ideas for future classes.
The criticism of Dembski’s Explanatory Filter took the form of a hypothetical fire. I think we can also make the point by looking at real-life biology. For example, it is well known that many plants are capable of self-pollination – pollen from an individual can successfully fertilize an egg from the same individual. I don’t have an exact number on the tip of my tongue (not a problem, as one sees if one manages to read everything), but pollen in these cases have a rather high “success rate”.
What, then, to think about self-incompatible plants? In these plants, pollen from self fail, essentially 100% of the time, to fertilize eggs from the same plant. Sheer chance cannot explain self-incompatibility – take all such instances in nature and factor together the pollen numbers and the individual failure rates for self-fertile plants, and one easily surpasses Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound. There was a time in the not so-distant past where no natural mechanisms were known that could explain self-incompatibility. Thus, at one point in time (actually, throughout all of history, except the last few decades), self-incompatibility was a phenomenon that passes thru Dembski’s Explanatory Filter: no natural mechanism, chance is not possible, thus design.
Now ask yourself – what if Dr. June Nasrallah (who is in the Plant Biology program at Cornell) were inclined to use Dembski’s Explanatory Filter when she began her studies of self-incompatibility in plants? After she had concluded “design”, what then? Certainly, the search for natural mechanisms would have ceased – by concluding design, we have in essence shut the door on the first node of the Filter. What would have been the trajectory of her career in science?
A similar discussion can be framed, I daresay, using research from most of the faculty at Cornell. If may not be the best way to introduce students to research at Cornell, but it is one way, and it combines this most excellent of motive with what I believe is a pretty clear demonstration of the inappropriateness of the Explanatory Filter in science.
Comment by Art G — July 4, 2006 @ 11:13 am
Sal argues using Voie that No natural mechanism of nature reducible to law can explain the high information content of genomes.
In fact, it is simple to show that this is incorrect. In other words, the premise seems to be flawed. So how does Sal explains these contradictions?
It seems to be much simpler to make claims that ‘x’ cannot be explained in terms of particular mechanisms than actually finding such mechanisms and show, as science has done, that evolutionary processes indeed can explain information and complexity in the genome.
There is so much evidence that contradicts Voie’s claim and Sal’s assertions that one wonders why one should take them seriously. Nevertheless, I encourage Sal to explain why science is wrong in its claims that variation and selection are sufficient to explain information in the genome?
Comment by Pimothy — July 4, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
David Hagen: Pvm:
“means, motive, and opportunity” are necessary to convict of murder, not to infer intelligent causation. Eliminating natural causation to a high probability implies intelligent causation (by definition, I know of no other option.)
You already answered your own question namely that “you don’t know of other options” and yet our ignorance may have allowed us to ignore viable options. So in order to infer design ID has to take an additional step: show that ID’s hypothesis is at least more plausible than science missing a particular explanation. After all, if ID’s probability is similarly low we should not invoke it. For this motives, means and opportunity are essential and not just for conviction but also for establishing intelligent design. Of course in forensics additional evidence is supplied in the form of direct evidence from DNA, fingerprinting, shoeprinting, cause of death etc.
Gary Hurd has provided an excellent example from forensic science which shows how our background information is any design inference.
All that elimination does is showing that known hypotheses have failed. But elimination grants NO credibility to intelligent design. In fact, I’d argue that intelligent design is well captured by regularity and chance. In other words, intelligence is natural and only when dealing with the supernatural may the design inference have any relevance but since ID then refuses to constrain its designer(s), it cannot provide any scientifically relevant explanation.
David Hagen:
Then showing similarity with human causation positively infers intelligent causation.
In other words by showing means and opportunity we can show that humans could have done this. However this hardly means that humans could have created a flagellum…
David Hagen: The origin of biotic life and origin of intelligence are primary issues for origin theories to explain or posit. As I understand Neo-Darwinism, the origin of biotic life is presumed (definitely no serious models yet), and the Primary Axiom of Random Mutation and Natural Selection is assumed to generate all subsequent life including humans. Intelligence arising from abiogenesis and natural forces appears to have been presumed, not proven. I’m still skeptical. e.g., John C. Sanford in Genetic Entropy (2005) finds that all the major population models show accumulating genetic entropy and degradation, not increase in function.
If Sanford thus has to be taken seriously Intelligent Design based on front loading fails and thus we are back to interventionism. But since ID cannot distinguish between interventionism and front loading it remains scientifically irrelevant.
Similarly, random mutations (variation) and selection is considered a major mechanism but we should not forget many other obvious contributors such as neutral mutions (drift), and physical, chemical, developmental constraints. In other words, chance and regularities in general.
The origin of life is presumed by evolutionary theory but this does not mean that science has been unable to generate plausible mechanisms. For instance the origin and evolution of the genetic code has shown significant progress in the work of Freeland, Bayes, and many others to show how selection, chemistry (regularity), and chance as well as historical contingency all have played roles in the genetic code. Unraveling the history of the genetic code is a slow process and fraught with complications.
Remind me again how does ID explain the genetic code ?
Comment by Pimothy — July 4, 2006 @ 6:17 pm
RBH is correct, Sal throws out some random references which have little relevance to the discussion and then when this is pointed out, Sal changes direction to yet a new argument. It seems hard for Sal to continue to support much of any of his claims when called upon.
I have observed much of the same with Dembski for instance who has yet to address the excellent arguments by Wesley Elsberry who showed how the traveling salesman problem shows that there exists actual and apparent complex specified complexity. In other words, algorithms as well as intelligent designers can create CSI and thus unless ID can show independent evidence for the designer(s), CSI cannot be used as a reliable marker to infer design.
The Explanatory Filter (EF): Useless because of false positives
Complex Specified Information (CSI): Unreliable due to existence of apparent versus actual CSI
Irreducible Complexity IC: Unreliable to detect intelligent design due to the existence of plausible evolutionary pathways.
Conservation of CSI: Not really a conservation law anyway…
No Free Lunch Theorems: They show how random search is actually trivially efficient in finding solutions. Contrary to what IDers seem to argue…
So now we have concepts such as:
Displacement Theorem : Dembski has yet to explain why Intelligent Designers are not affected by this phenomenon.
What else? All I notice is a displacement by ID to new gaps in our knowledge or new arguments while not explicitly abandoning old and unreliable or useless arguments.
It seems time for ID to ‘clean house’ so to speak and explain why these unreliable arguments should still be carried along as baggage.
Comment by Pimothy — July 4, 2006 @ 6:25 pm
Pimothy
Bravo performance! But still skeptically waiting to see how you invert Sandford’s conclusion of Genetic Entropy (2005) with progressive genomic degradation leading to species collapse based on Muller (1950), Haldane (1957), Muller (1964), Kimura, (1968), Neel (1986), Kondrashov (1995, 2002), Nachman & Crowell (2000), Walker/Keightley (1999), Crow (1997), Lynch, Connery & Burger (1995), Higgins & Lynch (2001), Hoyle (1999), Howell (1996) and ReMine (2005).
Comment by David L. Hagen — July 5, 2006 @ 1:14 am
Did an intelligent being ‘create’ the algorithm? You can’t have CSI without an intelligent agent, and an algorithm is simply a way of slipping in intelligence through the side door.
Comment by Lino D\'Ischia — July 5, 2006 @ 5:11 am
It seems to me you’re giving the store away here. Let me explain. You’re basically saying that it is impossible to distinguish between a man-made phenotypic change and a ‘naturally’ made phenotypic change. This strongly suggests that the way in which the ‘Designer’ operates, and the way that human intelligent agency operates are analogous. Hence, the transparency of the Darwinist preoccupation with, “We must know WHO the ‘Designer’ is and HOW this ‘Designer’ operates before we can say anything about design”, is clearly visible here.
And the operation of the Explanatory Filter is also brought into focus: based on what we ‘know’ about nature, about designers, about natural forces, etc., we either rule for, or against, design. In this case, ‘knowing’ that the this kind of genetic manipulation is possible via human manipulation, you would rule out the ‘glow’ as being designed by the Designer.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 5, 2006 @ 6:20 am
Art G. wrote:
Dawkins says that biological life looks like it’s designed. He makes that concession. But that doesn’t stop him, or any other scientist, from doing research does it? IDers say that biological forms display all the characteristics of design, and posit a ‘designer’. Why should that stop anyone from further investigation? Louis Agassiz firmly believed that creation was designed. But he didn’t resign from his chair at Harvard, or stop his research. This is just a strawman argument.
Comment by Lino D\'Ischia — July 5, 2006 @ 6:30 am
Mark Isaak:
When I was a kid, I loved to take things apart and put them back together again. My aunt gave me everything that didn’t work so that I could hopefully get it working again. Now, I knew what the ‘purpose’ of these objects were: to light cigarettes, or to produce light, for example. So I took them apart, asking myself at each step, what the purpose was for each piece.
Now I didn’t know ‘who’ made these objects–they could have fallen out of heaven for all I knew, or produced by aliens, or made by GE (by persons unknown). All I needed to know was the logical connection between the mechanical connections I was peeling away. Then I had to infer what was missing/not working, and then hopefully find a cure. But it was no more than a game of logic. All I needed to know about the ‘designer’ was that they were ‘logical’.
In biological systems, we know the purpose: bees are made to fly around, collect pollen, produce honey and build hives. And through tinkerings in our laboratories–i.e., biological research–we might even find links between this ‘gene’ and that particular attribute of the honeybee. We find ‘logical’ connections. And just as in the case of cigarette lighters and radios, knowing what the purpose of these objects is, and knowing that the various components have been logically put together, we have enough to move forward. That is, we don’t need to know ‘who’ the Designer is–all we need to know is that this Designer operates logically. (And, just as in the case with my childhood fiddlings, if the objects had not been logically put together, I would have never been able to fix them; so, too, if biological systems had not been logically put together, we would be able to figure out none of it. Thus, the assumption that we’re dealing with a ‘logical’ Designer is self-evident.)
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 5, 2006 @ 6:57 am
Sorry for all the posts all at once. I couldn’t sleep.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 5, 2006 @ 6:58 am
Maybe you can explain this one.
http://www.thecatholic.org/2005_March/St_Josephs_Staircase.htmLooks like DNA, doesn’t it?
Comment by Lino D\'Ischia — July 5, 2006 @ 7:16 am
Maxwell was a creationist (and not very friendly to Darwin). So was Faraday (and not very friendly to Darwin either) and Newton. These were the three greatest (in Einstein’s view according to some scholars). What IDer acts in a way that secondlass suggests an IDer might act? Clearly Maxwell and Faraday and Newton didn’t act that way, and they were even on the extreme end of the ID spectrum being also creationists!
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 5, 2006 @ 9:02 am
David Hagen: Bravo performance! But still skeptically waiting to see how you invert Sandford’s conclusion of Genetic Entropy (2005) with progressive genomic degradation leading to species collapse based on Muller (1950), Haldane (1957), Muller (1964), Kimura, (1968), Neel (1986), Kondrashov (1995, 2002), Nachman & Crowell (2000), Walker/Keightley (1999), Crow (1997), Lynch, Connery & Burger (1995), Higgins & Lynch (2001), Hoyle (1999), Howell (1996) and ReMine (2005).
I need a bit more detail before I can address your question. As they say, theory is only as good as its overlap with reality.
Could I also get some better references?
Comment by Pimothy (PVM) — July 5, 2006 @ 12:48 pm
Lino: Maybe you can explain this one. http://www.thecatholic.org/2005_March/St_Josephs_Staircase.htm
Looks like DNA, doesn’t it?
Btw DNA is right-handed not left-handed like your staircase.
A superficial ‘analogy’, one of the weakest arguments. Is this the best ID explanation?
Comment by Pimothy (PVM) — July 5, 2006 @ 12:56 pm
Sal reminds up of Newton
Was it not Newton who said (echoing ID’s arguments)
Just replace graviy with intelligence and you will see how ID has ‘progressed’…
Comment by Pimothy (PVM) — July 5, 2006 @ 1:03 pm
I was gone a few days and the conversation seems to have deterioriated beyond recognition.
Re scientists “proving” things: Hannah says they don’t do that and I showed her that they do, even at Cornell.
Scientists also prove things at Berkeley, regardless of what that Berkeley teaching aids website says.
By the way, Sal, is that website some sort of authority that we can all rely on? If you want to rely on teaching materials for high school students as the ultimate authority for matters we discuss here, that is your choice. But do let me know if that is how you want to play the game. Try doing a PubMed search for “Berkeley” and “prove” and see what you find.
Scientists do prove things. Can they prove everything to 99.999999% confidence? No. I never said they could.
But they can prove many things and — more importantly to my correction of Hannah’s error –they have done so many times and CONTINUE to do so– and we all rely on the work they’ve done without even thinking about it (and that includes creationists as well as skeptics).
So Hannah and Sal, you are free to continue to believe whatever you want about evolution and “intelligent designers”. But when you make bogus pseudo-philosophical statements about what science or scientists do or are capable of doing, then you sound very desperate and just a tad nutty to the professionals.
Remember: working scientists of the sort who actually study junk DNA and other compounds laugh — literally laugh, out loud and heartily — at the “contributions” of “intelligent design researchers” and creationists to the study of biology and the history of life on earth.
You have a long long road to hoe and dismissing relatively obscure popular science authors like Dawkins doesn’t really get you anywhere but weird.
Comment by Susan Percell — July 5, 2006 @ 1:06 pm
Susan, that’s some vitriol you just spewed.
Let them laugh all they want. But with each passing year, as knowledge and technological access to biological systems grow, Darwinism will collapse, and ID will seem ever more the proper stance toward biological reality. Remember, he who laughs last, laughs hardest.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 5, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
Turn the photo upside down, please. ;)
Comment by Lino D\'Ischia — July 5, 2006 @ 1:19 pm
Lino Turn the photo upside down, please
Does that solve the problem?…
Comment by Pimothy-(PVM) — July 5, 2006 @ 1:49 pm
Lino: . But with each passing year, as knowledge and technological access to biological systems grow, Darwinism will collapse, and ID will seem ever more the proper stance toward biological reality. Remember, he who laughs last, laughs hardest.
In fact, the predictions of the collapse of Darwinism are quite old. New research, while showing many more exciting features, has done little to add to the collapse of Darwinism.
It’s ID which has to fear from scientific discovery as any scientific hypothesis blocks ID from being relevant.
Comment by Pimothy-(PVM) — July 5, 2006 @ 1:50 pm
Susan–
Thanks for your comments; but do you really think finding out which words are paired in a PUB med search can give you any reliable indicators as to whether scientists do or don’t do? I’ve already made it clear that I was using the word in a logical sense, and it is quite irrelevant whether it is used colloquially in a different sense, or whether a friend of yours at Cornell thinks he/she is proving something.
Ofcourse we’re not suggesting that everything written up on the Berkely evolution website is necessarily correct, but that example could serve to illustrate that if I’m “nutty” for making that suggestion there are a great many other people in the sciences (and not all ID’ers) who are similarily nutty. It’s actually one of the first principles taught in our intro chemistry and physics courses here at Cornell. :)
Do you want a discussion of whether or not science can prove things?– if you do, perhaps we could find a more focused place for that. If you’re just interesting in making an argument for in what contexts people use the word colloquially, or what your friends say, I don’t think it’s really worth either my time or yours.
I’ve heard alot of bad arguments, but I think this is one of the worst. Should I really let whether or not it is laughed at play any role in my evaluation of an idea such as intelligent design?
Comment by Hannah — July 5, 2006 @ 1:51 pm
Hannah: ’ve heard alot of bad arguments, but I think this is one of the worst. Should I really let whether or not it is laughed at play any role in my evaluation of an idea such as intelligent design?
Whether people laugh at it or not, the simple fact that ID is scientifically vacuous should be a concern to ID proponents. I’d like to hear Hannah explain what the foundations of ID are and how they lead to predictions?
May I also point out that claims about the Cambrian and Junk DNA follow not from the premises of ID but rather from religious arguments about how God would or would not create. But since ID insist that it cannot address the designer(s), it cannot take such premises for its claims. So how does ID reach these conclusions?
Ryan Nichols and others have come to the inevitable conclusion that ID as it is formulated in its present eliminative approach, is doomed to remain scientifically irrelevant.
The we can talk about ID’s inability to distinguish between front loading and intervention, making ID not much different from the methodological naturalism it is trying to replace/enhance.
Comment by Pimothy-(PVM) — July 5, 2006 @ 1:58 pm
From 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution Scientific Proof? at Talkorigins by Douglas Theobald
What is meant by scientific evidences and scientific proof? In truth, science can never establish truth or fact in the sense that a scientific statement can be made that is formally beyond question. All scientific statements and concepts are open to reevaluation as new data is acquired and novel technologies emerge. ‘Proof’, then, is solely the realm of logic and mathematics. That said, we often hear ‘proof’ mentioned in a scientific context, and there is a sense in which it denotes “strongly supported by scientific means”. Even though one may hear ‘proof’ used like this, it is a careless and inaccurate handling of the term. Consequently, except in reference to mathematics, this is the last time you will read the terms ‘proof’ or ‘prove’ in this article.
Comment by Pimothy/(PVM) — July 5, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
You think those guys would have looked for a non-intelligent cause of lightning bolts in the pattern of morse code? No, they would have looked for an ultimately human cause, just as any rational person would. But they presumably would have taken a scientific approach rather than using ID methods, which I see as pseudoscientific.
Comment by secondclass — July 5, 2006 @ 2:07 pm
We’re going to be discussing intelligent design soon, but right now we’re still on Dawkins– even if he is just a “relatively obscure popular science author” his book is still required class reading.
Comment by Hannah — July 5, 2006 @ 2:08 pm
Previous post reformatted:
No, they would have looked for an ultimately human cause, just as any rational person would. But they presumably would have taken a scientific approach rather than using ID methods, which I see as pseudoscientific.
Comment by secondclass — July 5, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
Hannah
Thanks for your comments; but do you really think finding out which words are paired in a PUB med search can give you any reliable indicators as to whether scientists do or don’t do?
Uh, I get my information from professional scientists with whom I work and, uh, from my own work. Where do you get your information from Hannah? From Sal? From the Discovery Institute?
Scientists do prove a great many things. Do they prove that life on earth evolved exactly as Darwin said it did? Nope.
But that wasn’t your claim, was it Hannah? And I know it wasn’t mine.
Science do prove many things. Every day. Around the world. And they publish their data. What do “intelligent design researchers” do, Hannah?
Should I really let whether or not it is laughed at play any role in my evaluation of an idea such as intelligent design?
No. But you should let that fact play a role in how you present yourself. You’ve made some rather bold, strange claims and then you’ve excused yourself by saying you were “tired.”
I suggest picking up your game and admitting mistakes when you make them or, better yet, avoid making statements that are little more than blown-out rhetoric.
Scientists do prove things. Live with it.
Comment by Susan Percell — July 5, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
I don’t know what you mean by “natural forces are finite.” I can’t think of any way to prove that natural processes can’t perform the computationally simple task of generating prime numbers. In fact, if you’d like, I can pretty easily come up with a scenario in which prime numbers are generated naturally.
When you outlined the ID method, it didn’t include modeling for intelligent causation. I don’t know of any ID proponent who has actually done this.
Comment by secondclass — July 5, 2006 @ 2:26 pm
Douglas Theobold on talkorigins
Even though one may hear ‘proof’ used like this, it is a careless and inaccurate handling of the term.
Poppycock. Scientists proved that apples on earth are subject to the earth’s gravity.
Careless and inaccurate? Maybe in some postmodern land where an ordinary word like “proof” becomes meaningful only in the context of math and “logic.”
I live on earth. Scientists on earth do prove many things.
IF you disagree with what a scientist has proven, you are welcome to prove that scientist wrong: scientists also do that all the time.
What do “intelligent design researchers” do?
Comment by Susan Percell — July 5, 2006 @ 2:28 pm
Hanna
I’ve already made it clear that I was using the word in a logical sense, and it is quite irrelevant whether it is used colloquially in a different sense, or whether a friend of yours at Cornell thinks he/she is proving something.
Now you’re revising history a bit. You made your strict definition of the term clear only AFTER I objected to your statement that
Scarcely anything in science will ever be proved or disproved.
That is incorrect. I agree that science will not “prove” or “disprove” any “grand theory” involving events that happened a long time ago or relating intimately to objects which are extremely difficult to detect directly.
But what about “primates reproduce sexually in the wild”?
That seems proven to me. How many similar trivial facts have scientists proven?
A whole heck of a lot.
Claiming otherwise is just engaging in verbal gymnastics for no other reason except one: by arguing that “science doesn’t prove things” you blur the distinction between science and other methods of knowing (e.g., divine revelation). That’s convenient for ID promoters.
Comment by Susan Percell — July 5, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
Sal, is intelligence a combination of chance and necessity? If so, then how can it generate CSI? If not, then it must be supernatural, which renders your definition of “naturalistic” unscientific.
Comment by secondclass — July 5, 2006 @ 2:41 pm
Salvador said:
What behavior are you talking about? Are you saying that IDers haven’t concluded that biological complexity is caused by an inscrutable intelligent being?Comment by secondclass — July 5, 2006 @ 2:46 pm
Susan–
I’m not sure why you seem so worked up about this. I’ve told you already that I’m not attacking science; that you can’t prove anything with it doesn’t diminish it’s usefulness. In my lab group at least we’re quite content working within that limitation, and searching for our “best explanations”.
I am very curious now, though, as to where you work. Do you mind my asking? I’d like to know at which schools they still believe that you can “prove” things in science.
The way most students get their information. In this case, we’re taught in it in most of our s