Analogy, Induction, and Specious Arguments
“…and, in the same manner…”
Analogies. They come up all the time; useful in teaching or explaining, perhaps essential to our way of viewing the world; and yet highly problematic when too much relied upon. In his summary of Behe’s argument Allen suggests intelligent design theorists have made a fatal mistake in their reasoning, and are presenting nothing but the poorest form of logical argument, an “argument from analogy”. Is this a fair criticism?
All of the examples of design Behe provides in pages 194-204 to support his definition and design detection algorithm are clearly and unambiguously designed because they are all designed by humans, and we all agree that humans can indeed design things. However, arguing that this somehow validates his definition/algorithm is simply an argument by analogy, and we have already concluded that this form of argument alone is logically specious.
I submit that this charge is itself specious; that the design hypothesis, while based on analogies in the same way all non-deductive reasoning must necessarily be, is nevertheless a valid inductive argument; fraught with the same pitfalls as other non-mathematical inductive arguments, but neither unsound nor of inferior logic.
Our reasoning is as follows: in all situations in which we have a causal history, the presence of complex specified information (or, in Behe’s case, IC systems) unequivocally entails intelligent agency. While intelligent agency is capable of producing CSI, no other causes have been shown to have that capability. The reasonable inference, then, in those situations where we observe CSI but do not have a causal history, is to infer design by intelligent agency as the best explanation.
Allen’s charge is grounded upon the “human” element in most examples of unequivocal design; he claims that this shared property moves the argument into the camp of logically specious transductive arguments. This claim is unwarranted. In any inductive argument there is a case to be made for potential dissimilarities between the set that is observed and that to which we are generalizing; indeed, simply by virtue of having been observed, the initial set will always have some common property the extended one does not. While we may take this as a warning of the uncertainty that accompanies any inductive inference, this does not in any way invalidate the argument.
Michael Behe addresses this briefly in his response to Kitzmiller:
Cellular machines and machines in our everyday world share a relevant property — their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts — and so inductive conclusions to design can be drawn on the basis of that shared property. To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain. Neither the judge nor the Darwinists he uncritically embraces have done that in respect to intelligent design.
Nor yet, as far as I can tell, has anyone here.
Regarding analogies, Darwinian evolution relies on analogy of a “random” variable. So it too, should not be given a free pass for analogical reasoning if ID is being disqualified for the same.
The way “random” is characterized in evolutionary biology is through a stochastic processes. Projecting this “random” variable analogy onto biotic reality is not even logically consistent with the appearance of specified complexity. Appeals to the oxymoron known as natural selection to filter out “random” outcomes does not fix the logical inconsistency as demonstrated by Dembski’s displacement theorem. The framework of naturalistic evolution, with respect to emergence of specified complexity, is therefore an assertion that square circles exist.
At least ID’s conception is logically consistent. Given a choice between a self-contradictory theory versus a logically consistent one, I will say the logically consistent one has a substantial edge to qualify as the better theory. ID is the logically consistent theory in this case. Whether it is true is a separate issue, but it at least is logically consistent…
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 19, 2006 @ 4:15 pm
Hannah:
I submit that the above, with regard to specified complexity, is demonstrably tautological.
1) To determine that something exhibits specified complexity, you must rule out a null hypothesis, which, according to Dembski, “takes into account Darwinian and other material mechanisms.” (see here)
2) Therefore, the definition of specified complexity entails either immaterial design or unknown material mechanisms.
3) If the causal history is known, then that rules out unknown material mechanisms.
4) Therefore, if the causal history is known, then specified complexity, by definition, entails immaterial design.
Since design is required by the definition of specified complexity in the case of a known causal history, Hannah’s statement above is tautological.
Comment by secondclass — July 19, 2006 @ 5:26 pm
Secondclass
Suggest a closer reading of Dembski’s paper. He distinguishes between “chance” and “design,” not between material causes and “unembodied designers.” He particularly discusses “materially embodied designers” and “undirected material mechanisms.”
Thus, your 2) does not hold.
Comment by David L. Hagen — July 19, 2006 @ 8:03 pm
Salvador wrote:
Would you care to explain what the displacement theorem has to do with biological evolution? I’ve read Dembski’s paper on the subject, and I am at a total loss. Keeping in mind the fact that Dembski plays fast and loose with the concept of “assisted search” and equates it with “probability measure”, his theorem can be stated as follows:
Suppose W is a finite set with a small ‘target’ subset T, such that |T|/|S|=p. (i.e. p is the probability of picking an element in T uniformly at random when sampling from S). Let M(W) be a set of all possible probability measures on W. Suppose we are interested only in the set of probability measures M*(W,q) that assign a probability q to T so that q>p. Now, assuming that all the probability measures in M(W) are distributed uniformly at random, the probability of choosing a measure in M*(W,q) when sampling from M(W) will generally be smaller than p. Or, more succinctly and informally, the more probability measures favor the “target” set T, the less frequently such measures occur among all possible measures.
Now, Dembski equates the term “probability measure” with “assisted search”, but his justification for this is pure handwaving. (He seems to think that he can model any search as a series of pairwise independent, equi-probable steps, which, IMO, is just wrong: searches based on evolutionary algorithms certainly do not work that way.)
So it is unclear whether this theorem of his has any bearing even on “assisted searches”. What it has to do with biology is anyone’s guess. Perhaps Salvador would be so kind as to point out what constitutes a set of all possible probability measures on a finite set with a fixed target subset in the world of, say, biology?
The following article discusses additional shortcoming of Dembski’s “displacement theorem”. In the final analysis, Dembski’s long-winded exercise in formal mathematics does nothing to undermine evolution in the real world.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 19, 2006 @ 10:32 pm
Salvador wrote:
It is easy to for a position to be logically consistent when no empirical evidence or logical inference can possibly contradict it. As I said before, science would become so much simpler if we would only embrace ID…
By the way, why do you say stochastic processes are logically inconsistent with the appearance of specified complexity? I can see how you might argue that the latter is highly improbable as the result of the former within emprically determined time frames, but I see no inherent logical inconsistency between the two. Is there a new ID argument going around that I’ve missed out on?
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 19, 2006 @ 10:44 pm
Hannah quotes Behe,
Actually, Judge Jones did exactly this:
Comment by nmatzke — July 20, 2006 @ 12:11 am
Thank you Hannah for your argument. And although I appreciate your enthusiasm, I believe that you have been tricked by the arguments of ID.
I will take you step by step through your analysis and will show how your claims fail
Hannah
Not only is this based on a poor analogy but suffers from the simple problem that CSI is a begging the question concept. Let’s for the moment skip ’specification’ as this is trivial in biology. So we are left with complexity. So what does it mean that something contains CSI? It means that science has been unable so far to explain something. The moment science explains something CSI drops to zero. In other words, CSI is just a place holder for the argument that science does not explain something in sufficient details. Then there is the second problem: ID has failed to show the existence of CSI in any non begging the question examples. In other words, it is not even clear that CSI exists.
Conclusion: CSI is a begging the question argument since CSI cannot by definition arise from natural processes
In other words, CSI states that that which is designed is designed. Things however get much harder in case of biology where function is a natural outcome of the evolutionary processes. So how do we distinguish between apparant and actual CSI? In fact, Wesley Elsberry challenged Dembski to explain this and Dembski was forced to admit that CSI comes in two flavors, apparant and actual.
That’s quite an important concession as Dembski basically admits that the age old apparant versus actual design problem still exists and no solution is given how to resolve the differences.
But things get worse for ID, since ID has yet to show that it can explain design in nature, it is using a false analogy in addition to a begging the question or circular definition of CSI.
Since ID refuses to present any competing hypotheses of how a system arose, it cannot compete with ‘we don’t know’. Why is this a real problem? Well, in case of eliminative arguments, the existence of false positives renders the approach fully useless. As it is self evident, and even admitted to by Dembski, such false positives do exist and does render the filter unreliable as we have no independent way to determine how well the design inference holds up to the ‘we don’t know’ null hypothesis.
Conclusion: ID is based on two concepts: an eliminative argument and an analogy. The eliminative argument is rendered useless by false positives and the inability of ID to provide a way to constrain the ID hypothesis, allowing it to be tested against the null hypothesis. The analogy argument is rendered irrelevant because of the circular definition of CSI which states that something which can be explained in terms of regularity and chance, has zero CSI.
There have been quite a few people who have pointed out the many problems with ID. That ID relies on ‘induction’ significantly undermines its argument, especially when combined with a circular definition of CSI and an approach which is purely eliminative.
So let’s accept for a moment that Hannah is right and that induction leads to a hypothesis? What testable hypothesis would this be? That life is designed? We need no induction to generate such a hypothesis, we need the empirical evidence that shows positive evidence for these claims. ID refuses to deal however in these concepts.
No hypotheses logically follow from ID beyond, natural processes cannot explain…’x’.
As a Christian and Scientist I find it highly troubling that ID provides its unexpecting followers with arguments which open them up to rightful ridicule.
I have heard more than once people argue that they have been assured by ID proponents that ID provides a solid scientific foundation for its claims. Given the simple fact that no such solid, scientific foundation even closely exists, I cringe at hearing those arguments, especially from Christians. And imagine the response of such Christians when they find out that ID is really quite empty handed? The cost to science is bad enough but the cost to religious faith should not be trivialized.
A good reminder by Augustine who wrote over 1600 years ago in “The Literal Meaning of Genesis”
(Augustine, “De Genesi ad Litteram” On the Literal Meaning of Genesis, pp. 42-43).
I understand that Hannah is studying mathematics and in that light the following comments should be relevant:
Wimsatt:
Del Ratzsch:
Charles Darwin, 1871 THE DESCENT OF MAN
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:20 am
Appeals to the oxymoron known as natural selection to filter out “random” outcomes does not fix the logical inconsistency as demonstrated by Dembski’s displacement theorem. The framework of naturalistic evolution, with respect to emergence of
You have made this erroneous comment before and have been asked to support your claims.
It should be clear to all that Sal’s argument is nothing more than a proof by assertion.
Sal’s meaningless statement is easily contradicted by information theory as I have shown elsewhere. What has ID contributed to information theory? How does ID explain neutrality? Degeneracy? Nested Hierarchies? Scale free Networks? Evolvability?
It doesn’t and yet science does. Let not be fooled by Sal’s empty claims and while I can understand why Sal believes these statements to be true, the true source of his misconceptions are to be found in the often equivocating ID claims. Of course, a quick perusal of the vaste amount of resources on the internet would quickly show how empty ID really is.
Remember:
1. Original Claim: CSI is a reliable detector of intelligent design. Revised claim: There is apparant and actual CSI and ID fails to resolve how to differentiate between the two.
2. Original Claim: No natural processes can generate CSI. Of course few would tell you that this is by definition not through logic or reason.
3. IC is a reliable detector of design. Revised claim: IC in some circumstances can show how some systems cannot be explained by solely relying on natural selection and the maintenance of the original function.
It should not come as a surprise that much of ID is written in Jello. What saddens me is how it seems to lead so many well intentioned Christians astray into making claims which simply cannot follow from the limited foundation of the ID claim (explanatory filter.)
I am well aware that Dembski has attempted to salvage his claims by first appealing to the No Free Lunch theorems. As I have shown, under these theorems random search is trivially simple. In fact, not only is search trivially simple but high dimensional fitness landscapes are well connected via near neutral mutations. Just as we see in nature.
2. When the NFL theorems failed to provide much support for his claims some of which include such meaningless concepts as the law of conservation of information which is neither a law nor conserves, Dembski attempted to argue that the search for large spaces requires a metasearch. Again, to those unfamiliar with evolutionary science, mathematics and information theory, this may sound impressive but the simple fact is that a needle in the haystack search, which is how IDers perceive evolution, becomes quite plausible under neutrality. See Finding Needles in Haystacks is Not Hard with Neutrality (2002) Tina Yu, Julian Miller. So what about search?
Howard Pattee, whose work has been misinterpreted by Voie to argue for ID, observed the following
and
And yet, ID seldomly quotes these relevant research findings? Why is that?
So why is it that ID research seldomly references these findings?
Are ID proponents even surprised that ID avoids these issues in their writings?
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:35 am
If naturalistic evolution is offered as a highly likely explanation it has to be highly probable based on it’s own mechanisms. It is not highly probable even based on it’s own mechanisms, therefore it’s logically inconsistent. However if the theory characterized itself as a very weak possibility based on it’s proposed mechanisms it would be a logically consistent theory.
If I said I found 500 fair coins all tails on the floor and claimed the result was likely the product of random chance, that would be a logically inconsistent statement. A logically consistent statement is that even though chance may be an explanation it would be a very, very, very weak one with a 1 in 2^500 chance.
Hang on here. We have two issues:
1. definition of design
2. cause of design
Definitions are by nature tautological. At least the IDers have definitions that result in logically consistent inferences. Which is in contrast to evolutionary biology that has logically inconsistent or weakly stated definitions and inferences.
What is falsifiable however is:
A. whether an artifact can fit a pre-existing definition of design
B. and if it fits, whether an intelligence is a reasonable cause
That is not the case for ID with respect to certain artifacts of interest. Succeed in spontaneous generation and you’ll break the will of many IDers.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 12:38 am
Leonid observes
Yes through equivocation and circular arguments ID has managed to cloud the issues significantly and I hope to assist in unraveling some of the more egrerious examples such as defining CSI that it cannot be generated by natural processes per definition, or the equivocation between such terms as specification and specify, or information as defined by ID and information as it is more commonly used in sciences.
But many people have contributed to showing the scientific vacuity of ID.
For example: ID argues that design is that which remains after natural processes and chance have been eliminated. So in other words, design could be the empty set. Only by conflating intelligent design as more commonly used with a definition which presumes that which it needs to prove, can ID further its claims.
Imagine the cost to faith when the faithful come to realize that ID is hardly the solid scientific argument they were led to believe?
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:39 am
A good example of how not to argue comes from Sal’s example. Can anyone tell us where the logical fallacy resides?
If naturalistic evolution is offered as a highly likely explanation it has to be highly probable based on it’s own mechanisms. It is not highly probable even based on it’s own mechanisms, therefore it’s logically inconsistent. However if the theory characterized itself as a very weak possibility based on it’s proposed mechanisms it would be a logically consistent theory.
If I said I found 500 fair coins all tails on the floor and claimed the result was likely the product of random chance, that would be a logically inconsistent statement. A logically consistent statement is that even though chance may be an explanation it would be a very, very, very weak one with a 1 in 2^500 chance.
Hint: Sal switches from evolutionary mechanisms to chance alone, leading the poor reader to believe that there is a logical argument presented.
I have seen countless examples of this bait and switch-like argument, start of with a more general argument and then disprove the specific while arguing that it disproves the general argument.
So how does science resolves this? Simple: A simple rule of always Tail generates the set of 500 tail coins. In other words, the existence of a regularity shows how easy this example can be resolved. Of course things become even worse because the example of heads and tails shows another false analogy, namely that the usual coin toss is only an example of chance alone and thus seldomly seen as generated by regularity and yet, a flawed coin, or a two faced Tail coin can all explain the observation and none of these need to involve intelligent design.
In other words, garbage in, garbage out. I thank Sal for providing us with a good example of a flawed argument in which the switch from regularity and chance to chance alone is made so clearly.
Remember: If naturalistic evolution is offered as a highly likely explanation then it has to be highly probable based on it’s own mechanisms. Those are Sal’s words and yet Sal limits the argument to only one aspect of evolution, namely pure chance alone.
Similarly, various of Dembski’s examples should be rejected as well, since they either ignore the processes of regularity, or fail to follow the prescribed recipes for how to apply the explanatory filter. Sal’s example however seems to beat them all/
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:48 am
Here’s Nick quoting Judge Jones:
“For human artifacts, we know the designer’s identity, human, and the mechanism of design, as we have experience based upon empirical evidence that humans can make such things, as well as many other attributes including the designer’s abilities, needs, and desires.”
Here’s me quoting Michael Denton:
“How would stone age man have judged a motor car or a pocket calculator? Incapable of manufacturing anything other than a crudely shaped flint tool, so primitive that it could hardly be distinguished from a natural piece of rock, the inside of a pocket calculator would seem a purposeless tangle of strings–a random maze of straw trapped inside a leather bag. . . .How would an ancient Egyptian have judged an airplane or a submarine? Only if our ancestors had seen a man in the cockpit of the airplane would they have grasped the incredible, that it was na artefact. It would, of course, be an artefect beyond their comprehension–an artefact of the gods.”
The point here is obvious: Stone Age man would understand nothing of a calculator–let alone a computer (Denton was writing in the mid-80’s). Without any knowledge of plastics, electricity, circuitry, L.E.D’s, etc, they wouldn’t stand a chance of understanding any part of it. And, yet, a calculator is the product of human intelligence. Then, on the other hand, we moderns understand that DNA acts as a code. We understand that DNA codes for proteins. We know enough to recognize intelligence in the genome——-And what do Darwinists aregue?: “What KIND of intelligence is it? We don’t know anything about this intelligence!”
What a feeble, completely irrelevant argument this is. No more than a distraction. We certainly know more about this intelligence than Stone Age man would know about a calculator, for whom a calculator would be “an artefact beyond their comprehension—an artefact of the gods.”
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 20, 2006 @ 12:52 am
Hang on here. We have two issues:
1. definition of design
2. cause of design
Definitions are by nature tautological. At least the IDers have definitions that result in logically consistent inferences. Which is in contrast to evolutionary biology that has logically inconsistent or weakly stated definitions and inferences.
That’s funny but again illogical. First of all, Sal and other creationists used to object strongly to the tautological nature of natural selection and now they are arguing that tautology is somehow a strength?
But let’s quickly point out that while definitions are tautological, ways to detect design cannot be tautological and yet they rely on a definition of CSI which precludes natural processes by definition… No wonder that ID can conclude that natural processes cannot generate CSI.
No Sal, ID is not what you hoped it to be. In fact I’d argue it matches much of your assertions about evolutionary theory. Assertions which as usual could benefit from some logical or empirical support…
Trust me…
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:52 am
Succeed in spontaneous generation and you’ll break the will of many IDers.
I guess Sal is accepting that the front loading argument is not really a relevant argument after all. Or otherwise, Sal would have argued, in true ID form, that even if abiogenesis can be explained, the information had to come from an intelligence who preloaded the world with it.
See how vacuous ID really is?
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:03 am
What judge jones has shown is that ID’s approach to inferring design is very different from how science infers design.
Lino may not like this fact but it merely serves to show that ID’s claims that science applies the explanatory filter in these cases, is just plain wrong.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:06 am
By the way, why do you say stochastic processes are logically inconsistent with the appearance of specified complexity?
Because ID defines it that way. Nothing logical about it really. Of course we do know that RMNS can explain the appearance of functional information in the genome, when the appropriate definition of information is applied.
Such is the difference between ID and information theory…
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:08 am
Hannah wrote:
The above argument from ignorance attempts to ignore biological evolution while pretending there are other CSI creating entities besides humans running around. The claim should really read:“Our reasoning is as follows: in all situations in which we have a causal history, the presence of complex specified information (or, in Behe’s case, IC systems) unequivocally entails humans. While humans are capable of producing CSI, no other causes have been shown to have that capability. The reasonable inference, then, in those situations where we observe CSI but do not have a causal history, is to infer design by humans as the best explanation.”
Since we have theories supported by evidence that natural process produce CSI, and not a theory or shred of evidence for the existence of “intelligent agencies” other than humans, aren’t natural processes the better explanation? What’s the fallacy for saying “no other causes have been shown to have that capability” to infer natural processes only when one knows there are also no other intelligent agencies besides humans that have been shown to have that capability – argument from hypocrisy?
Comment by alienward — July 20, 2006 @ 1:41 am
PvM:
And what Denton was able to demonstrate is that inferring the design of a superior intelligence is no different than Stone Age man inferring design in human artefacts he’s not able to even begin to understand—with this exception: we have begun to understand the design of the Designer. Can we now end the distractions?
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 20, 2006 @ 1:42 am
Lino, I agree, we have begun to understand the design, and it ain’t what ID hoped for.
So perhaps it’s time to admit that ID has no clothes? Or perhaps, someone cares to dress it up :-)
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:45 am
Pim
As a Christian and Scientist I find it highly troubling that ID provides its unexpecting followers with arguments which open them up to rightful ridicule.
And most Christian who are professional scientists would agree wholeheartedly with you, Pim.
For example, the claim that the differences between chimps and humans were put their by a designer to give scientists something to do. That bizarre claim was made by two different ID promoters here, as I recall.
Sal wrote that ID is “logically consistent.”
It’s “logically” consistent with everything, as Sal knows, because there is no way to show scientificaly that an otherwise undetectable deity is manipulating “reality”. This was discussed on the first day of class, as I recall. It’s reason number one why “ID theory” is vacuous, i.e., useless to scientists.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 1:52 am
Lino
The point here is obvious: Stone Age man would understand nothing of a calculator–let alone a computer (Denton was writing in the mid-80’s).
So who were the entities who designed all the different life forms that ever lived on earth? Were the creatures who evolved into Stone Age men smarter than Stone Age men?
Who were these entities, Lino? Who do you think they were? Give us one or two theoretical possibilities, at least. Ideally, possibilities which allow us make predictions which we can test to evaluate the utility of the theories.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 1:55 am
Behe
Neither the judge nor the Darwinists he uncritically embraces have done that in respect to intelligent design.
This is simply an ugly smear on Judge Jones by someone (Behe) who came out of the trial looking very foolish to everyone except his most ardent disciples and those who simply lack the education to tell the difference between a genuine scientist and a professional gadfly. Thankfully, Judge Jones is not so easily confused.
Cellular machines and machines in our everyday world share a relevant property — their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts — and so inductive conclusions to design can be drawn on the basis of that shared property. To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain.
As others have already noted, the obvious and relevant difference is that when we see an “everday machine” and decide that a human made it, we do so based on our knowledge — proven facts, actually — that humans exist and these humans make machines.
When we see a collection of “everyday” remarkably round and colorful balls (e.g., marbles) we say that humans made those too. Therefore, the ID promoter must argue, in the absence of a detailed second-by-second molecule-by-molecule “explanation”, we shold conclude that intelligent designers created the solar system too. Such is the underlying “logic” of ID.
Scientists are not interested in wasting time with anti-scientific nonsense. I leave it as a challenge to the ID promoters here to figure out why scientists reject ID and why certain sects of Christians embrace it.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 2:18 am
I got stuck in the anti-spam filter.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 2:18 am
Sal
That is not the case for ID with respect to certain artifacts of interest. Succeed in spontaneous generation and you’ll break the will of many IDers.
Hilarious. “Break the will.” And who would be left after that momentous event? Based on their rhetoric, the only way to knock ID superstars Behe and Dembski off the boat would be to create life in a test tube and prove that the life could evolve into at least as many different life forms as have ever existed on earth.
But as others here have noted, this extreme skepticism isn’t applied to every observable phenomenon that can’t be explained completely and with 100% accuracy.
Instead, the vocal and strident skepticism of ID promoters is applied particularly to some aspects of science that hold significance to certain people for non-scientific reasons.
This arbitrary behavior is more consistent with a political movement than the growth of a new field of biology.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 2:31 am
As this discussion begins about Dembski’s work, it is worth noting that the definitions of “Complex Specified Information”/”Specified Complexity” are a mess. The IDists (and many of their critics) operate on two different definitions, and switch between them as convenient.
Definition type #1: Observational definition:
Here, “unevolvability” is not part of the definition of SC, so SC systems — basically any complex system in biology, on this definition — might — or might not — be able to evolve.
Definition type #2: Tautological definition:
Here, “unevolvability” is part of the definition of SC, so SC cannot evolve by definition, and saying “SC cannot evolve” is merely stating a useless tautology. The real argument here is whether or not SC, i.e. unevolvable, systems actually exist in biology.
ID/creationists switch between these two types definitions at will, in order to have the appearance of an argument. Mark my words…
Comment by matzke1 — July 20, 2006 @ 2:37 am
Thanks Nick. Love’em self contradictions…
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 3:05 am
Nick,
You are representing observations and descriptions of the properties of specified complex objects and then claiming these observations and descriptions are definitions. That is disingenuous.
That is like taking quotes from an evolutionary biologist who might say the following:
1. evolution is the foundation of biology
2. evolution is descent with modification
3. evolution is slow
And then saying, “look at all the inconsistent definitions of evolution, what a horrible theory. I’ve just listed three definitions, and look how different they are. Evolution is therefore a mess.”
I thus challenge Nick to cite the book and page number where the actual definition of specified complexity is given rather than taking descriptions of it’s properties and claiming they are definitions.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 3:23 am
I thought a trackback would appear on here, but apparently not… oh well… anyway, I have a response to Hannah’s original post:
The Design Analogy.
Comment by Dan — July 20, 2006 @ 9:54 am
An apparently designed object found!
The designer unknown, along with how, when and why. Could this be a calling card left by the “Intelligent Designer”?
I say not. As the article discusses, the object contains in its makeup evidence about the tools and technology used in its manufacturer, which tells us something about who it might have been.
Meanwhile, no positive evidence whatsoever has been found for the actions of the mysterious “Intelligent Designer”. Does Behe, Salvador, Hannah or any other ID proponent possess positive evidence, such as a videotape of a new species being miraculously created? Poof!
Comment by ivy privy — July 20, 2006 @ 10:16 am
David L. Hagen:
According to Dembski, nature cannot produce CSI, so design is always a supernatural process. Whether the designer is embodied or not is irrelevant.
As usual, Pim has fleshed out the issue much better than I can. As he said in post #7, CSI disappears when a natural cause is discovered.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 11:34 am
Salvador:
Not so. Reread the quote from Dembski:
Indeed, to attribute specified complexity to something is to say that the specification to which it conforms corresponds to an event that is highly improbable with respect to all material mechanism that might give rise to the event.
[emphasis mine]
Your argument is with Dembski. If you have a definition of SC that’s consistent with everything he has written on the subject, please share it.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 11:45 am
Funny how ID proponents like Sal used to lament the confusing definitions of evolution but they seem to have no problem with similar self-defeating definitions by IDers…
Irony aside, Nick is correct that ID switches ’seamlessly’ between two very different definitions, one which is totally tautological to confuse the issues about CSI.
Note that Sal ignores the objections and laments about something irrelevant, redirecting the conversation away from the embarassment of CSI.
I do not blame Sal for this, since dealing with the vagueness, self contradictions of ID, quickly reduces ID to irrelevance.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:11 pm
In post #25, Nick comments:
I don’t see the word “unevolvability” anywhere in the quote. So you must think it is somehow implied. I don’t see it implied either. Could you elaborate?
I suppose you think that the phrase, “specified complexity . . . is inexplicable in terms of all material mechanism . . .” sounds like a complex, specified object cannot ‘evolve’. But Dembski is not saying that form A cannot change into form B, but simply that for this to happen an intelligent agent is presupposed: hence, “intelligent design.”
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 20, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
Let’s not confuse the meaning of evolution. Nick’s statement is quite clear.
No need to redirect away from Nick’s excellent rebuttals. But I do understand the temptation as the vacuity of ID is laid out for all to see.
Let’s also clear up the confusion that ‘design’ requires an agent…
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
Lino, do you agree with the following statement by Dembski?
So too, for ID to gauge the unevolvability of biological systems and to establish the need for intelligence to bring about such systems may well turn out to be a catalyst of scientific research whose significance might even end up being comparable to that of the laws of thermodynamics.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:21 pm
Lino:
(emphasis mine)
So Lino agrees that design is built into the definition of specified complexity, thus making SC-based design inferences tautological. I’m glad we’re all on the same page.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 1:26 pm
So let’s look some more at definitions
Given an event A of probability P(A), I(A) = -log2P(A) measures the number of bits associated with the probability P(A). We therefore speak of the “complexity of information” and say that the complexity of information increases as I(A) increases (or, correspondingly, as P(A) decreases). We also speak of “simple” and “complex” information according to whether I(A) signifies few or many bits of information. This notion of complexity is important to biology since not just the origin of information stands in question, but the origin of complex information.
So if the probability of an event approaches 1, because we can explain the causal factors leading up to it, then information/complexity is reduced to zero.
In other words, when we can explain an event by design OR by regularity/chance, the probability approaches 1 and the information approaches zero. At least in the confusing parlance of ID.
Dembski attempts to embrace information theory but it should be clear by now that his esoteric definitions only serve to lead to confusion and equivocation.
Even ignoring the tautological definition of CSI which precluded natural mechanisms from generating CSI, things do not look much better for Dembski as scientists have indeed shown that CSI can evolve under processes of RM&NS, quite trivially actually.
So, under any definition of CSI, I argue that ID remains a vacuous principle based on the presumption that design is the residual of chance and necessity.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
PvM:
The only way to distinguish between apparent and actual CSI is to look at the causal history. For example, in NFL, Dembski shows that “METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL” has a complexity of 133 bits, but in this paper, Dembski shows that the same phrase has a complexity of zero. The only difference is the causal history.
So, to determine whether something is designed, we have to calculate its real complexity, and to do that we first have to determine its causal history, which renders SC superfluous. Is it any wonder that nobody actually uses specified complexity for anything other than an ID talking point?
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 2:45 pm
From Logical Underpinnings
I show then the equivalence of specified complexity to complex specified information (CSI).
Are one of Dembski’s critics here going to post the actual definition Dembski gave for CSI (complex specified information), or are they going to keep mangling the definitions in the discussion by taking commentary on his idea and claim that’s his definition?
For example, one could quote an EBer saying:
“evolution is the foundation of biology” and claim that’s a definition then start attacking the strawman definition. Is that appropriate?
So is someone going to step forward and give the formal definition of CSI?
Salvador
Hint:
There is a chapter in No Free Lunch on “Specified Complexity as Information
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 2:48 pm
Salvador,
You have opined in the past that the formal definition is: The coincidence of conceptual and physical information where the conceptual information is both identifiable independent of the physical information and also complex.
What makes this definition more official than any of the others that Dembski has stated? If that’s the definition, why didn’t Dembski include it in his latest primer on specified complexity? In fact, his latest treatment of SC contradicts that definition as it dispenses with the independence requirement.
Once you’ve addressed those issues, we’ll discuss whether this definition can be considered “formal” by any reasonable standard.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
So is someone going to step forward and give the formal definition of CSI?
Apparently you’re not going to.
Comment by ivy privy — July 20, 2006 @ 3:16 pm
We should also note that Salvador raised the same issue with Shallit and Elsberry, to which Shallit responded:
Recycling isn’t going to work in this forum, Sal, since not all of us are new to the debate.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 3:34 pm
WHAT THE HECK DOES THE ORDERED PAIR (T,E) SIGNIFY EXCEPT THE VERY THING YOU QUOTED:
DO YOU EVEN HAVE THE BOOK IN HAND TO CHECK SHALLIT’S WORDS. TURN TO PAGE 141!!
SHEESH! You swallow Shallit’s obfuscations so uncritcally!
And that earlier definition will still work with Dembski’s later revision. However, his revision allows more clarity where the T’s and E’s can be less awkwardly stated and more in conformance with the way we tend to think of T’s and E’s.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 4:34 pm
If the definition that Shallit used is the same as the one that you claim is the formal definition, then why did you criticize Shallit?
Nope, I don’t carry it with me. If I’ve misquoted or misrepresented anything, please point it out and I’ll retract it.
Why do you consider his earlier definition, rather than his revision, to be the formal definition?Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
Here is the thread
that secondclass is referring to (his link is broken).
In it Sal says
Hmmm yet above Sal admits that Shallit used Dembski’s FORMAL definition rather than the English-language paraphrase of it. How is that “not including Dembski’s definition of his concepts”?
Is it because, perhaps, Sal thinks the English language definition is more formal than the mathematical one? Let us see…
Well, it appears that might be the case. The fact that attacking Dembski’s work in a formal way pretty much requires using the formal definition seems to escape Sal.
But, the point should be moot, since above Sal says…
Well, if they signify the same thing, why did you argue at PT that Shallit and Elsberry ignored Dembski’s own definition? If Dembski gave two, on e formal, one informal, which are equivalent, and Shallit and Elsberry used the formal one, what exactly is your beef?
Comment by Don Baccus — July 20, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
Salvador wrote:
This is very confused. Is gravity “highly probable based on its own mechanisms”? Is fluid mechanics? Until you clarify what you mean, the only response I can give to you is that so far, ID assertions notwithstanding, there is no evidence to suggest that the development of present-day level of biodiversity through known evolutionary processes is a particularly improbable occurrence. Even if it were, however, it would not render the evolutionary explanation “logically inconsistent”, although science would either start looking for a theory that better fits the evidence or seek to augment the present-day theory.
No, it would not. “That blue car is red”, or “To tell you the truth, everything I say is a lie” would be logically inconsistent statements. Saying “it is likely that these 500 coins all landed tails-up by chance” is a logical possibility, even though it is almost certainly, ceteris parabus, an awful explanation. However, suppose upon entering the room and seeing 500 coins heads up, we were stricken with a near- omniscience that allowed us to systematically rule out all other possible causes for the coins arrangement. In that case, chance will emerge not just a highly likely explanation of the data, but the only possible one. Hence, there is no logical inconsistency.
I have no desire to break anyone’s will. Still, I sincerely doubt your assertion. First, you establish no reasonable criteria for “spontaneous generation”, leaving plenty of wiggle room for ID. But even if science were to give a detailed, incontrovertible account of abiogenesis occurring purely through natural mechanisms, ID will likely simply retreat further into the comfortable depths of human ignorance, and try to pass itself of as science by pushing “design” as an explanation where scientific knowledge is either not absolute or unattainable. In fact, we already observe IDers doing exactly that, when promoting the anthropic principle. (Note: I have no problem with the anthropic principle as a theological or philosophical position. As a scientific argument, however, it is as vacuous as the rest of ID.)
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 20, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
If I said I found 500 fair coins all tails on the floor and claimed the result was likely the product of random chance, that would be a logically inconsistent statement.
If someone followed this simple procedure, would you say that the result was due to “random chance”?:
Start with 500 fair coins. For each coin, flip it. If it comes up tails, leave it be and move on to the next coin. If it comes up heads, flip it again. Repeat until all 500 coins show tails.
You, who seem to be such a stickler for definitions when it suits you, are leaving the selection out of natural selection.
The evidence for natural selection as a mechanism of evolution is about as strong as the evidence that the Earth is billions of years old.
Comment by ivy privy — July 20, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
Hmmm … that’s not much help since Sal rejects the evidence that the Earth is billions of years old, too …
Comment by Don Baccus — July 20, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
WRT the 500 tails, we don’t need CSI to tell us that they aren’t random. Randomness testing was well established before Dembski hit the scene.
And to get from a conclusion of “not random” to a conclusion of “a human did it” requires nothing more than a comparison of possible explanations, based on our background knowledge. In contrast, Dembski’s approach eschews comparisons.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 6:35 pm
(That’s not the topic of this thread, but anyway…)
I criticize Shallit’s paper because:
1. he did not use the definition, contrary to his claims
2. the T,E pair description he presents as non-definitive, therefore, he didn’t use it in that respect either!
Rather, he pulled the same trick Nick Matzke pulled prevented readers from seeing the real definition.
Is Shallit providing an accurate “definition of CSI”? No, that’s a mangling of it. Presenting the proper definition of CSI will remove the false impression of inconsistency Shallit attempted to create. Of course, that starts with actually using the formal definition, which, contrary to his claims, he never really did. NOTE: Shallit in his paper mentions page 141, but what do we actually find on page 141?
The way I bolded it with the colon was exactly the way Dembski bolded it and put a colon on page 141 of his book. Thus, anyone with Dembski’s book, will see the diagram is printed on page 141 to present the formal definition.
Page 142 which Shallit claims to have the formal definition, does not have it. In fact what is embarrassing is that in his own paper he references page 141, not 142. Oops! But of course, in mentioning page 141, he shows that he willfully failed to convey what was in big letters and BOLD PRINT on page 141:
Kind of hard to miss, huh? Yet, no quotation of it at all in Shallit’s “refutation”, and the closest thing to it ( ordered T,E pairs) he presents as non-definitive.
And all of Shallit’s purported counter examples were straw man knockdowns and not based on the real definition of CSI. That’s what I mean by Shallit not including the definition, he mangled the definition of what CSI represents.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 7:19 pm
And all of Shallit’s purported counter examples were straw man knockdowns and not based on the real definition of CSI. That’s what I mean by Shallit not including the definition, he mangled the definition of what CSI represents.
Sal, why are you focusing on an unworkable definition of CSI and fail to acknowledge the workable definitions provided by Dembski?
Are you trying to detract from the simple fact that Shallit et al destroyed Dembski’s claims?
How desperate can one get Sal. I am sure people on this board won’t be fooled.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 11:48 pm
Salvador wrote, quoting Dembski:
This isn’t a formal definition, it’s a conceptual one. Dembski is trying to convey, in non-technical terms, the meaning of the formalisms he attempts to develop in the book. Whether or not he is successful is highly questionable, given that even his supporters appear to have difficulty understanding what means. Might I suggest that defining information as “coincidence of information” is not the clearest way of expressing one’s ideas?
Anyhow, the definition given by Shallit is the more formal of the two, and it is entirely consistent with Dembski’s conceptual description above. Shallit wrote:
So, the definition given by Shallit corresponds to Dembski’s as follows:
Complex Specified Information:
The coincidence of conceptual and physical information [ordered pair (T;E)] where the conceptual information [the pattern T] is both identifiable independent of the physical information [the event E, to which T conforms] and also complex.
Now, Shalit’s definition is not complete, since he does not mention that T should be independent of E, but that would require a formal definition of “independence” between events and patterns, which is sadly absent from the conceptual paragraph that Salvador claims is the “formal” definition. Still of the two definitions, Shallit’s is by far the more formal; nor do I see how this omission would invalidate any of the claims in the remainder of Shallit’s paragraph.
It appears that the only indisputably correct criticism of Shallit’s rebuttal is that he was off by one page in the citation. I guess that renders his entire paper null and void. ;)
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 20, 2006 @ 11:57 pm
Notice that Shallit and others have provided real definitions of CSI. Instead of showing why their claims are wrong, Sal has focused on ad hominem argumentation rather than logic.
These seem to be desperate times if they ask for such measures.
So Sal, how come that you fail to address the arguments raised and instead accuse people without any supporting evidence?
Hannah, do you agree or disagree with Sal here? You are the mathematician.
Dembski seems clear, Sal appears to be confused.
Post #25 provides at least some mathematical definitions of CSI.
Was Dembski wrong in these definitions? Is the definition Sal insists on, a mathematically workable definition?
In this section I will present an in-principle mathematical argument for why natural causes are incapable of generating complex specified information.” Dembski p. 150 NFL
By basically defining complex specified information in such a way that it is zero when natural processes can be identified.
To give a good example, see Dembski’s ‘analysis’ of the Weasel argument
As the sole possibility that Dawkins’s evolutionary algorithm can attain, the target sequence in fact has minimal complexity (i.e., the probability is 1 and the complexity, as measured by the usual information measure, is 0). In general, then, evolutionary algorithms generate not true complexity but only the appearance of complexity. And since they cannot generate complexity, they cannot generate specified complexity either.
In other words, Dembski argues that in case of the weasel since the probability of the outcome is 1, the information is zero…
As Richard Wein observed
Elsberry immediately pointed out the problem with Dembski’s argument
But in “Explaining Specified Complexity”, Dembski does treat a known causal story as either “regularity” or “chance”. The causal story in question is that of an evolutionary algorithm which yields a specified result in a small number of tries out of a large problem space. Here, Dembski tells us that the complexity of the result (found by reference of its likelihood of occurrence due to a “chance” hypothesis”) is apparently large but actually zero, because the probability of the result given its known cause is 1.
Elsberry however did ‘force’ Dembski to admit that there is such a thing as apparant and actual CSI, and so far Dembski has failed to explain how to distinguish between the two.
Also
Dembski
My point was that Dawkins’s evolutionary algorithm converged on METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL with probability one, and therefore reduced the complexity of generating this sequence to zero. With reference to specified complexity, complexity and probability are inverse notions: High complexity presupposes many live possibilities and correspondingly assigns low probability to anyone of these possibilities. Thus, while it’s true that shaking out random scrabble pieces would render METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL highly improbable (and therefore complex), Dawkins’s evolutionary algorithm renders that sequence certain and thereby removes its complexity.
In other words, by defining CSI as the probability that natural processes can explain the system, Dembski has tautologically defined that which he attempts to prove as a given.
Tricky…
So far we can conclude that:
1. Dembski has defined CSI in a circular fashion
2. Dembski has yet to show that intelligence can actually generate CSI
The self contradictions are just piling up here.
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 12:21 am
Seems totally clear now that contrary to Sal’s claims, Shallit (who holds a PhD in mathematics) correctly represented CSI, and its fatal flaws.
Shallit is not the only mathematician to point out the flaws and ‘jello’-ness of Dembski’s arguments.
Perhaps it’s time for Sal to address Shallit’s rebuttals, or those of various others, many of which remain unadressed by ID.
Dembski: But if some outcome B is necessary given antecedent conditions A, then the probability of B given A is one, and the information in B given A is zero.
Dembski uses this to argue that a regularity cannot explain information, but if that is the case, give A, where A is intelligent design, the probability B of a known designed object approaches 1, and thus similarly to regularity, the information should approach zero.
How come that these simple facts are being ignored by ID?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 12:34 am
Those who have problems with the broad sweep of evolutionary theory object because of the same observation in a myriad of places. There are the cell itself, cell functions, body parts, body organisms and life forms, which do not have any obvious predecessor.
Behe and Dembski have tried to illustrate this in different ways and you can quibble all you want over the mathematical definitions or the definitions of irreducible complexity but each is trying to show the problems that the lack of these predecessors entail.
There are no obvious predecessors to the first cell. There are no obvious predecessors to the first phyla, which appeared during the Cambrian Explosion. There are no obvious predecessors to a large percentage of the life forms that have been found in the fossil record. There are no obvious predecessors to the body systems that Behe pointed to.
Instead we get “just so stories” or suspect computer simulations on how these life instances could have arisen but no hard evidence.
You can mock all you want Behe’s definition of irreducible complexity but the glaring fact is that there is no obvious predecessor to any of the systems he described. The fact the Ken Miller had to point to a small sub-part of the bacterial flagellum as his only defense on how the flagellum wasn’t irreducible complex shows the weakness of the objections to Behe’s observations.
The criticisms of Dembski sound like the medieval monks arguing over how many angels there were on the head of a pin. Find one supposedly flaw in the reasoning and you have made your point that the whole approach is as some commentators have said, “vacuous”
What I find irrelevant and vacuous is all the quibbling over these definitions and the inability to find any good evidence to overcome the problem of the lack of predecessors. Those who defend the broad sweep of evolutionary biology seem to be playing a game of “Gotch you” trying to belittle the other side rather than seriously addressing the problems.
Comment by J. Cosgrove — July 21, 2006 @ 9:44 am
J Cosgrove,
Thank you for you comments, and I have very much appreciated your participation here as it is an encouragement to the ID-sympathetic students and seekers out there….
I’m participating here for the benefit of the IDers (and the IDEA club members) who are interested in the topic. I address questions that I think the students might want to have answers to, and ignore the rest.
The following is the principal reason debates of this variety are of any use:
Dealing with the Backlash
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 10:31 am
Obliterating Dembski’s math and showing that Behe’s examples of IC really aren’t is hardly “quibbling”.
Speaking of “just so” stories, would you care to flesh out a few things for me?
1. What tools or methods did the designer use to design life.
2. Why don’t we see evidence of these tools or methods in the empirical record.
3. Who designed the designer?
Find the designer and you guys win, hands down. Get on it, life is short!
Comment by Don Baccus — July 21, 2006 @ 10:42 am
There are no obvious predecessors to the first phyla, which appeared during the Cambrian Explosion.
Really? So those microbial fossils dated to over 3.5 billion years ago did not belong to a phyla? Absolutely remarkable!
You can mock all you want Behe’s definition of irreducible complexity but the glaring fact is that there is no obvious predecessor to any of the systems he described. The fact the Ken Miller had to point to a small sub-part of the bacterial flagellum as his only defense on how the flagellum wasn’t irreducible complex shows the weakness of the objections to Behe’s observations.
I don’t think it’s fair to refer to TTSS as a “small sub-part” of the flagellum. In addition, Nick Matzke has done some work tracking down evidence that individual proteins constituting the flagellum are all related to other proteins. Perhaps he would be kind enough to expound on that here.
I take it you don’t have any of that positive evidence for the actions of the designer that I’ve been asking for, and that’s why you cling so tightly to your arguments from ignorance.
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 10:55 am
What I find irrelevant and vacuous is all the quibbling over these definitions and the inability to find any good evidence to overcome the problem of the lack of predecessors. Those who defend the broad sweep of evolutionary biology seem to be playing a game of “Gotch you” trying to belittle the other side rather than seriously addressing the problems.
This thread is originally dedicated to the question of argument from analogy. Perhaps another thread should be addressed to the argument from ignorance, its logical weakness and its historic failure as the gaps of knowledge shrink.
Anyway, I found something by Matzke on the flagellum; I’m not sure if this is the exact piece I was thinking of or not:
Evolution in (Brownian) space: a model for the origin of the bacterial flagellum
Copyright 2003 by N. J. Matzke
Version 1.0 (last updated November 10, 2003)
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 11:25 am
another link on Flagellar origins:
Nick Matzke:
…
Meyer says, “the other thirty proteins in the flagellar motor (that are not present in the TTSS) are unique to the motor and are not found in any other living system.” This is flat-out mistaken, as Meyer would have known if he had read my survey of the peer-reviewed literature on the evolutionary origin of the flagellum. Off the top of my head, nonflagellar homologies have been documented — in the scientific literature, not by me — for the 2 motor proteins (MotAB) (see here), the 10 or so chemotaxis and MCP proteins, FlgA, FliA, the FlgJ C-terminal domain, the two master regulator genes FlhDC mentioned by Minnich in the paper, and FliK. Furthermore, FliM is essentially a fusion of another flagellum protein (FliN) and a chemotaxis protein (CheC), and all of the 11 or so flagellar axial proteins (rood, hook, flagellar filament, linkers, caps) are probably homologous to each other (the references for most of the proteins discussed can be found here, although I discovered a few of these homologies after that article was written). Altogether, there are very few flagellar proteins “unique to the motor” in Meyer’s sense, particularly if we throw in a few more that are probably homologous to each other (4 chaperones), those probably homologous to Type II secretion (FlgH, FlgI), and those that can be deleted with little or no obvious ill effect (FliL, FliE, FlgM).
…
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 11:29 am
J Cosgrove:
In my opinion, your comments in post #55, are, simply, infuriating. Your basic point, in my opinion, is that subjecting ideas to close scrutiny is akin to “belittling” an opponent. In this case, the whole concept of peer review should be tossed out. According to your thinking, we might also want to toss out our democratic form of government where ideas are debated in a rigorous manner! You have struck at the core of what ID truly represents, an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
You say, “What I find irrelevant and vacuous is all the quibbling over these definitions.” Can’t you see that because of Dembski’s unclear definition of CSI, the people debating this concept are having are hard time coming to a consensus! Is this bad for people to want to try and communicate clearly and effectively? Is finding a common understanding irrelevant and vacuous? PLEASE!!
Finally, in paragraph #3 and #5 you make some assertions with no supporting evidence. But wait! In paragraph #7 you complain about how you find science “irrelevant and vacuous” because of its “inability to find any good evidence to overcome the problem of the lack of predecessors.” So I guess a critical part of any argument that might sway you is actual evidence. Right? Then why do you provide none in paragraph #3 and #5?
Because you like actual evidence could you please provide some in regards to this claim you made: “There are no obvious predecessors to the first phyla, which appeared during the Cambrian Explosion.”
Please explain why this review I got off of Wikipedia of the Cambrian is wrong. Furthermore, explain why the introductory textbook written by Chernicoff, is also giving me bad information: Of the 20 metazoan phyla with extensive fossil records, at least 11 first appeared in the Cambrian. Of the remainder, one is known from Precambrian and the other eight from the Phanerozoic eon (Collins 1994). An additional 12 soft-bodied phyla have poorly defined fossil records, many of which are conjectured to be Cambrian in origin. Molecular evidence suggests that at least six animal phyla had established themselves as distinct evolutionary paths during the Precambrian (Wang et al. 1999).
Comment by Mike Hannigan — July 21, 2006 @ 11:29 am
J. Cosgrove:
I beg to differ. In order to untangle Dembski’s work, we have to start with well-defined and consistently-defined terms. So Sal’s request for a single formal definition is on track, but Dembski isn’t very helpful in this department.
Dembski’s latest work defines specification only in terms of rejection regions, patterns, descriptions, and compressed data, but Sal seems committed to the definition given in Figure 3.2 of NFL. (Note that Sal criticizes Shallit and us for not stating the “proper definition,” even though Dembski’s latest paper commits the same cardinal sin.) Let’s see how far that “formal definition” gets us:
The coincidence of conceptual and physical information… Dembski is vague on the distinction, but it seems that conceptual information must reside in the mind of an intelligent agent. If a computer compresses data, then the compressed data constitutes a specification according to some of Dembski’s definitions, but not according to this one. Which definition is correct?
…where the conceptual information is both identifiable independent of the physical information… What does it mean to identify conceptual information? And doesn’t Dembski mean that it should be independent according to a null hypothesis? After all, if we infer design, we’re concluding that the instances of information aren’t independent.
…and also complex. By “complex,” Dembski means improbable according to the null hypothesis. But what is the null hypothesis? Uniform chance? Some other distribution? Do we consider possible material mechanisms? If so, which ones? What about unknown mechanisms? Do we need to take into account the causal history? If so, how much of the causal history must be known in order for our complexity calculation to be valid?
These are not minor quibbles. In particular, the questions regarding complexity cut right to the heart of Hannah’s logical argument.
Comment by secondclass — July 21, 2006 @ 11:52 am
Relative to the Cambrian Explosion, I suggest interested people read appropriate sections of the book, “On the Origin of the Phyla” by James Valentine and also his review of pre-Cambrian fossils in “Prelude to the Cambrian Explosion.” This cite for the latter is
Annu. Rev. Earth Planet. Sci. 2002. 30:285–306
Only reason why I take such a stance is because James Valentine gave interviews, in which he stated what I have claimed and his writings are consistent with these claims. He doesn’t say that nothing existed prior to the Cambrian Explosion but that there is no clear prior link to the large disparity of body plans that appeared during a short time in the Cambrian period, which includes the first appearance of several different unique body plans including for example, several different types of eyes.
As far as the flagellum, I suggest the students read the various discussions and decide for themselves if they think an adequate path to its appearance existed.
While Wikipedia is a very informative source of information, it is not the final judge of anything.
Comment by J. Cosgrove — July 21, 2006 @ 12:27 pm
As far as the flagellum, I suggest the students read the various discussions and decide for themselves if they think an adequate path to its appearance existed.
And I reiterate my comment that your entire post consists of arguments from ignorance. I suggest that students familiarize themselves with the argument from ignorance, which is recognized as a logical fallacy. Familiarity with the argument from ignorance will go a long way towards understanding the case for ID, since there is no positive evidence for ID. At all. Whatsoever.
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 1:14 pm
There we go again with Valentine… Yes, I know he has been quoted as being in support of the ‘we don;t know’ theory but his latest book On the origin of Phyla puts all of this uncertainty at rest
The title of this book, modeled on that of the greatest biological work ever written, is in homage to the greatest biologist who has ever lived. Darwin himself puzzled over but could not cover the ground that is reviewed here, simply because the relevant fossils, genes, and their molecules, end even the body plans of many of the phyla, were quite unknown in his day. Nevertheless, the evidence from these many additional souces of data simply confirm that Darwin was correct in his conclusions that all living things have descended from a commmon anscestor and can be placed within a tree of life, and that the principle process guiding their descent has been natural selection.
Recent findings, both fossils as well as phylogenetic data have reduced the miracle of the Cambrian, therefor destroying any hopes for ID.
It’s once again obvious that science is doing the hard work and ID is remaining empty handed.
Just ask yourself:
How does ID explain the Cambrian, the flagellum?
Have you ever wondered why such questions are answered by a long silence?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
Sal points out that, quoting Behe:
Substantive objections are bypassed. Irrelevancies are stressed…. Misrepresentations abound
Yes, I myself have found how claims, when asked to be supported, remain unaddressed, how discussions are being redirected when answers are lacking.
I could not agree more with Sal here… So when do we get to see some support for the claims?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
Cosgrave: There are no obvious predecessors to the first cell. There are no obvious predecessors to the first phyla, which appeared during the Cambrian Explosion. There are no obvious predecessors to a large percentage of the life forms that have been found in the fossil record. There are no obvious predecessors to the body systems that Behe pointed to.
Anyone even vaguely familiar or uptodate with present scientific literature would quickly come to the realization that Cosgrave’s claims are erroneous and contradicted by fact. In fact precambrian precursors have been documented both in fossil records as well as in phylogenetic data.
Unfamiliarity is no excuse for vacuity. If Cosgrave is interested, I am more than willing and able to provide references to support my claims.
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:20 pm
As to mocking Behe and Dembski, you misunderstand the issues. Behe and Dembski have pretended that a solid (mathematical) foundation exists to infer design. What we are showing is that this foundation is neither mathematical nor solid.
Cosgrave’s redirection away from the devastating flaws in ID’s foundation to more standard creationist claims shows how ID is retreating to its creationist origins whenever challenged. Even Dembski has returned to his old love of ‘apologetics’ it seems… If ID were so fruitful scientifically, how come we are not shown any relevant examples of such? Now I am not saying that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, as I am unwilling to make the same errors found in ID but I am also willing to argue that the basic premises of ID allow for no scientific relevance, either as a theory or meta-theory.
any takers?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
Leonid:
But Leonid, the definition of ‘independence’ is given right there in the formal definition:
Complex Specified Information:
The coincidence of conceptual and physical information where the conceptual information is both identifiable independently of the physical information and also complex.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 21, 2006 @ 1:40 pm
Lino, that’s not a formal definition in the sense that’s useful in mathematics. Since the arguments are essentially mathematical (probability-based), we need something to chew on using mathematical methods.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 21, 2006 @ 1:50 pm
Valentine in Prelude to the Cambrian Explosion Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Sciences Vol. 30: 285-306 (Volume publication date May 2002)
The Prelude began with the origin of Metazoa, perhaps between 720 and 660 million years ago (mya), and ended with the geologically abrupt appearance of crown bilaterian phyla that began between 530 and 520 mya. The origin and early evolution of phyla cannot be tracked by fossils during this interval, but molecular phylogenetics permits reconstruction of their branching topology, whereas molecular developmental evidence supports hypotheses for the evolution of the metzoan genome during the rise of complex bodyplans. A flexible architecture of genetic regulation was in place even before the appearance of crown sponges, permitting increases in gene expression events as bodyplan complexity rose. Neoproterozoic bilaterians were chiefly small-bodied but likely diverse, whereas in the earliest Cambrian, between 543 and approximately 530–520 mya, bodies that were complex by marine invertebrate standards evolved in association with body-size increases.
Seems quite clear
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:55 pm
I could repeat my postings on the evolution on the eye and how science suggests a monophylic origin rather than the independent origins of eyes, again based on hard scientific research, contradicting much of the earlier claims that eyes were polyphyletic. In other words, the basic building blocks can be traced back to a common ancestral state.
How come ID has failed to incorporate these facts of science?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
J Cosgrove,
One of my earlier posts to you was held up in the spam queue. I just wanted to thank you, and give you a link to a good article by Bill Dembski.
regards,
Salvador
PS
Lino, thank you also.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
PvM, you forgot the last sentence of the paragraph in the preface of Valentine’s book that you quote. It is
“And he was correct in so much more”
So we can say that Valentine is a believer in natural selection and Darwin’s ideas. But then Valentine has made some other statements about the Cambrian Explosion and Darwin. There are several but I will repeat the one I mentioned before.
“Darwin had a lot of trouble with the fossil record because if you look at the record of phyla in the rocks as fossils why when they first appear we already see them all. The phyla are fully formed. It’s as if the phyla were created first and they were modified into classes and we see that the number of classes peak later than the number of phyla and the number of orders peak later than that. So it’s kind of a top down succession, you start with this basic body plans, the phyla, and you diversify them into classes, the major sub-divisions of the phyla, and these into orders and so on. So the fossil record is kind of backwards from what you would expect from in that sense from what you would expect from Darwin’s ideas. Although once we get into the fossil record where we got a complete fossil record we can see the gradual changes within lineages as Darwin predicted.”
So which is the real James Valentine? I say they both are and that he is saying that Darwin’s ideas of slow gradual diversification of species are not supported by what first appeared during the Cambrian Explosion but only what appeared later in the fossil record.
Your quote from his review is based on a speculative approach of trying to predict origins from molecular DNA data from today while his statement above is based on what has been found in the fossil record. Note the quote you provided, “The origin and early evolution of phyla cannot be tracked by fossils during this interval.”
Thank you for making my point.
Comment by J. Cosgrove — July 21, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
Yes, and Shallit was Dembski’s teacher and helped Dembski get a PhD, and Shallit is now less famous than his former student. Indeed, I salute Shallit.
But, back to Hannah’s post, does anyone else have something to say about analogies? The scientific method would not succeed without analogical reasoning.
We assume an atom is analogous to another atom, that is only by assumption. If one threw away analogical reasoning, one may as well dump all of science.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 2:17 pm
Sal,
Thank you for your link. I have watched the backlash for several years now. It only convinces me even more that “they really don’t have anything” or else why the mis-representation. hostility and disdain. If it was so obvious, they would present it and it would dissolve opposition through the weight of their arguments. Instead they proffer sleight of hand experts like Dawkins.
I was in academia for several years and one of my colleagues said that the egos of those in academia are more important than anywhere else because they are not in the real world so it is all they have. Heated arguments over minutiae in faculty meetings were legend. So while this topic is not strictly an academic only issue, it has the same feel.
Comment by J. Cosgrove — July 21, 2006 @ 2:44 pm
We assume an atom is analogous to another atom, that is only by assumption.
Only by assumption? So you’re saying there’s no experimentation involved in that assessment?
So then where are the experimental results showing that a flagellum is like a mousetrap or a watch?
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 2:46 pm
Salvador, you misspelled infamous. ;-)
WRT Hannah’s original post, Allen is correct in stating that arguments from analogy alone are specious. Along with the analogy, it must also be shown that there is a logical connection between the properties in question. (Unless you’re making a purely statistical argument, in which case you need a statistically significant set of data.)
I see two problems with Behe’s response:
1. He shifts the burden of demonstrating that logical connection: “To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain.”
2. He begs the question in stating that the functional complexity of cellular machinery is “born of a purposeful arrangement of parts.”
And, of course, we still have the fundamental problem that no IDer has defined design in a way that’s meaningful and doesn’t entail an empty set.
Also, WRT Hannah’s specific inductive argument, we have already noted that some definitions of SC and IC render the premise of the induction tautological. Hannah needs to tell us what definitions she’s using.
Comment by secondclass — July 21, 2006 @ 3:02 pm
Well here is one for Allen’s side of the argument about the possible frailty of analogies.
Are Atoms Real?
Just to show I’ll occasionally give considerations to the other side of the argument. :=)
Atoms are analogies to our conceptions, since analogies can be faulty, we should consider rejecting them.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
And 100+ years ago, when that piece you posted was written, perhaps it was reasonable to so argue.
But, just in case you haven’t noticed, physics has marched on.
For instance, we can actually take pictures of atoms, making them rather difficult to reject.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 21, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
More analgous reasonings:
Challenging Particle Physics as Path to Truth
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
Lino wrote:
As Don was kind enough to point out, the above definition is not formal, but conceptual. That said, I think I was wrong in the previous post, and Shallit’s formal definition of CSI captures Dembski’s stipulation of independence quite nicely.
My initial impression was that Dembski used the term “independently” in the same sense that it is used in probability theory: i.e. events A and B are independent if knowing that A occurred does not alter the probability of B and vice versa. However, upon re-reading, it appears that Dembski’s use of the term isn’t mathematical at all: he is simply saying that the “conceptual information” (i.e. pattern) and the “physical information” (i.e. physical event) are separate, unrelated entities. That is precisely captured by Shallit’s ordered (T,E) pair formulation.
So thank you for helping me spot my error, Lino. I’m sure Salvador is equally appreaciative now that he’s been shown that Shallit did not misrepresent Dembski after all.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 21, 2006 @ 4:33 pm
6. Hannah quotes Behe,
…
Actually, Judge Jones did exactly this:
…
I note that although Hannah started this thread, she has not put in an appearance since. Hannah: Several posts, such as #6, claim to be direct responses to portions of your opening posts. Do you consider them to be convincing; and if not, why not?
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 4:43 pm
Let’s remember the very name, “natural selection”, comes from an analogy: “artifical selection.” Darwin was very much influenced in his ideas about ‘descent with modification’ by his exposure to breeders and his own work with pigeons.
NS is, thus, an analogy.
Hannah, in her reply to Allen, included this quote of Michael Behe from his response to Kitzmiller:
“Cellular machines and machines in our everyday world share a relevant property — their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts — and so inductive conclusions to design can be drawn on the basis of that shared property.
Darwin was correct–to some degree–in the analogy he drew from the morphological changes he had seen ‘breeders’ bring about; that is, we know that to some extent so-called ‘microevolution’ occurs in nature. He was correct precisely because there was a valid parallel between the morphological ‘variability’ of species found ‘in nature’ and that of ‘domestic’ species, and, between elimination of certain forms made by ‘breeder’s’ and those of ‘natural selection’.
Courtesy of modern science, there is now a similar parallel between the ‘mechanical complexity’ of man-made machines and the ‘cellular complexity’ of living cells.
ID accepts the validity (some unconditionally; others, like me, conditionally) of ‘microevolution’. As an explanation of so-called ‘macroevolution, ID now proposes the ‘design inference’ as a valid analogy.
Darwinists, however, not only accept Darwin’s ‘analogy’ wholeheartedly, they proclaim it as a ‘fact’, while, at the same time, denying any validity to ID’s ‘analogy’.
Finally, after comparing machines and cells, Behe then adds:“To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain. Neither the judge nor the Darwinists he uncritically embraces have done that in respect to intelligent design.”
When it comes to ‘natural selection’ as an ‘analogical’ explanation for so-called ‘macroevolution’, one can demonstrate this very serious ‘dissimilarity’: you can breed dogs all you want, but you don’t end up with anything other than a cat.
Therefore, there are reasons to reject the prevailing Darwinian ‘analogy’ when it comes to ‘macrowevolution’. However, when it comes to ID’s ‘design analogy’ between ‘man-made machines’ and ‘living cells’, what ‘dissimilarities’ would Darwinists like to point out?
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 21, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
Leonid, not to beat a dead horse, but Shallit includes the following definition of specification (sorry that the math symbols are garbled):
Here he obviously includes the independence requirement. This doesn’t include the definition of complexity (which he addresses elsewhere), but neither does Salvador’s definition. I’ll leave it to the reader to decide which is more formal.
Comment by secondclass — July 21, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
Atoms are analogies to our conceptions, since analogies can be faulty, we should consider rejecting them.
That bit was from 1901. Atoms are now pretty much universally accepted. What happened between then and now? New analogies? Or new evidence?
What path does ID have to new evidence, since it has no experimental research program, and no hypothesis generation that would lead to an experimental research program? Will ID ascend on an ever-more-powerful collection of arguments from ignorance?
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
When it comes to ‘natural selection’ as an ‘analogical’ explanation for so-called ‘macroevolution’, one can demonstrate this very serious ‘dissimilarity’: you can breed dogs all you want, but you don’t end up with anything other than a cat.
Heh.
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 5:32 pm
Lino:
So if I breed dogs for millions of years, I can’t produce anything but plain old dogs? Can you support that assertion?
I don’t know anyone whose belief in natural evolution hinges on an argument from analogy. Do you?
For dissimilarities, see comment #6.
Comment by secondclass — July 21, 2006 @ 5:32 pm
Darwinists, however, not only accept Darwin’s ‘analogy’ wholeheartedly, they proclaim it as a ‘fact’, while, at the same time, denying any validity to ID’s ‘analogy’.
That seems long on rhetoric and short on substance. You wish to relabel a well-established theory as an “analogy” and thereby diminish it and the 1.5 centuries of experimental evidence backing it up. You then wish to draw an equivalence by also labelling ID as an “analogy”, which may be more appropriate since it cannot be called a “theory”, what with not being backed by evidence and not being testable.
Finally, after comparing machines and cells, Behe then adds:“To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain. Neither the judge nor the Darwinists he uncritically embraces have done that in respect to intelligent design.”
Nick Matzke relayed a quote from Judge Jones in comment 6 that seemingly falsifies this. Why do you not believe it to be shown false?
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 5:40 pm
Get back to us when “machines in our everyday world” start reproducing sexually or asexually.
That’s the unshared property that counts, and that blows the attempted analogy out of the water.
Sure, NS was an analogy of artificial selection. If that analogy was all that Darwin and the generations of scientists that have followed had to support evolution, you might have a point.
But of course Darwin’s Origins had mountains of supporting evidence, and since Darwin, we’ve observed natural selection at work in the real world. Support for NS doesn’t rest upon the original analogy, not by any means.
That can’t be said by ID claim that that “if it looks designed to me, it must be designed”.
Or the even more ridiculous implications made several times recently by Dembski: “if humans copy something in nature when designing a machine, the thing they copied must itself be designed”.
Now, *that* is lame.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 21, 2006 @ 5:44 pm
However, when it comes to ID’s ‘design analogy’ between ‘man-made machines’ and ‘living cells’, what ‘dissimilarities’ would Darwinists like to point out?
Let’s start with this: If I leave two Paleyist watches in a shoebox with food and water for a few weeks, I don’t return to find a whole litter of baby watches. Why don’t Paleyists acknowledge this difference?
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 5:47 pm
Wow… I wasn’t following along until Ivy Privy pointed me to one of your comments just a few minutes ago…
You really don’t understand evolution, do you?
Comment by Dan — July 21, 2006 @ 5:47 pm
Speaking of analogies, Natural Selection does not even qualify as a mathematically workable analogy to describe evolution of functional design. Lewontin notes:
Santa Fe 2003
Lewontin discovered Natural Selection leads to inconsistent perceptions of functionality (in the engineering sense).
That means that functional complexity (in the engineering sense) is not inherently recognized by Natural Selection. Natural Selection could just as well favor simplicity or non-functionality. In fact, it’s role in describing functiion is effectively superflous. Thus as an analogy, Natural Selection doesn’t even work, it’s a superfluous retrodictive add-on narrative, not a scientific explanation as Lewontin unwittingly demonstrates.
So in the case of Natural Selection, analogies are a moot point, and at least ID is still in the running, therefore ID is a more adequate explanation by default.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
The power of analogy for biology.
UCSB To Be a Pioneer in Systems Biology
Nature Genetics 2005: Postgenomic Futures
Systems biology (the engineering approach to biology) is predicted to be the dominant paradigm for biology. Unwittingly, Design (and it’s analogeis) will be the way of the future for biology’s advance, not natural selection.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 9:34 pm
secondclass:
There are 350 breeds of dogs. How many do you see ‘in nature’. So, artifical selection can do much more than natural selection can bring about. However, what is seen when breeding is that as a breeder pushes harder and farther in a certain morphological direction, the offspring become feeble. The common-sense conclusion is that there is a limit to how much artificial selection can go. When this is done with cats instead of dogs, the point of enfeelbement is reached after far fewer breeds.
So, to answer your question, common sense says that if you had 350 million years of breeding, you’d probably not have too many more than the 350 we have right now.
Yes, Charles Darwin. Have you read the “Origins”?
The problem in biology is that most biologists are not familiar with what Darwin really wrote. They’re not familiar with the problems that plague this paradigm. And, as Behe pointed out, they simply presume that all of these ‘little problems’ have been taken care of by somebody else. But, they haven’t. So, if you don’t know anyone who thinks natural selection isn’t based on an analogy, then it’s just pure ignorance.
Maybe you should look here to see what others say about the ‘analogy’.
Just to whet your appetite:
“Conclusion The central role played by Darwin’s analogy between selection under domestication and that under nature has been adequately appreciated, but I have indicated how important the domesticated organisms also were to other elements of Darwin’s theory of evolution-his recognition of the constant principle of change, for instance, of the imperfection of adaptation, and of the extent of variation in nature.”
secondclass:
Is this what you mean?
Unlike biological systems, human artifacts do not live and reproduce over time.
If self-replication is a dissimilarity, it is a dissimilarity that bespeaks design, not randomness.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 21, 2006 @ 10:01 pm
I haven’t had any time till now, but I’ll try this weekend to respond to those comments which directly challenge points in my post… tomorrow if I can get out of lab for long enough, else Sunday. Sorry about that, and thanks to those who’ve written responses/criticisms… I have been reading and considering them.
Comment by Hannah — July 21, 2006 @ 10:21 pm
Here are more development related to the analogy of design which natural selection can be mathematically demonstrated to be weak in doing. Further it vindicates my claimes about robustness and redundancy versus PvM’s degeneracy.
Unwitting Pro-ID Peer-Reviewed Articles on the Increase… Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, March 2006
These funcitonal systems have a very poor if not self-contradictory explantion in terms of natural seleciton, but as the authors indicate, it is better explained by sophisticated design principles. Whether one says analogies are the poorest form of reasoning, that complaint is being largly rejected by the coming generation of systems biologists.
Finally, IMHO, redundancies will eventually lead to the superiority of the design metaphor (analogy) over natural selection for purely mathematical reasons. Redundant systems are mostly invisible to selection for obvious reasons(a redundant system in principle can be knocked out without little noticeable effect on the organism, thus little noticeable effect on fitness!).
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 10:40 pm
From Wagner’s book (perhaps the foremost on robustness and redundancy):
In other words, to understand biology, one must forsake the perspective of natural selection and instead adopt the lens of Irreducible Complexity! If fitness cannot even be quantified, what good is it scientifically? How can science proceed without the capacity to measure something? How can natural selection be a good framework for biology when it’s influence cannot even be measured with respect to designed systems?
In contrast, one can measure the fidelity of a design analogy. That was laid out in Dembski’s work. Thus if there is a strong correlation to an engineering specification, we have high confidence in the predicted behavior of the system. And in addition, we have falsifiable and testable cybernetic laws.
Thus again, the power of design analogy is a superior framework for investigating biology, mathematically and empirically.
Biology has unwittingly adopted the central tenets of ID.
Salvador
PS
Clarification: a holistic redundant system functions BECAUSE one can knock out a part and it still functions. In that sense it is still specified complex but not irreducibly complex. However, the individual back-up systems in a redundant system are IC.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 11:08 pm
Dan:
And you really can’t figure out when somebody makes a simple mistake. The last sentence should end with “dog” instead of “cat”.
Do biology students study how to be condescending; or is it just the type of students it attracts.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 21, 2006 @ 11:22 pm
Salvador, it occasionally pays to read papers past the abstract. From the introduction:
(the entire paper is available here.
Now, you write:
Except, of course, the authors offer an explanation in terms of natural selection that is neither poor nor self-contradictory. They do make extensive use of the design analogy in the text - I agree that such analogies can be quite useful when discussing complex systems - but they are under no illusion that an analogy is the same thing as an explanation. So while “design” may help scientists think about certain aspects of systems biology, evolution actually explains them.
Again, read the paragraph above. The authors suggest that systems of redundant genes may perform separate, selectable functions in gene expression and regulation, and that the redundancy is merely a side effect of this functionality. In other words, the “reduntant” systems in question are potentially selectable, and thus fit well into the evolutionary framework. The very paper you cite contradicts your own humble opinion.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 22, 2006 @ 12:38 am
Secondclass, thanks for the link and the clarification (re your comment #85). Shallit and Elseberry’s paper is an interesting read (so is Dembski, although for entirely different reasons). I particularly like their alternative formulation of CSI in the appendix: much more clear, concise, and rigorous than anything I’ve ever seen from Dembski. Of course, under their formulation, a simple sequence duplication could potentially increase CSI, so it couldn’t possibly be right, could it? ;)
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 22, 2006 @ 12:53 am
By the way, can you tell me how many times the words “selection” or “fitness” were mentioned in the paper? :=)
I count ZERO, how about you?
The authors do not justify their claims, but rather appeal to tired old circularly reasoned interpretations of “conserved sequences”.
Tell me in the paper do they discuss selection co-efficients, population sizes, experimiental menthods for determining selection pressures? NO! Just assumed.
I read past the abstract, that’s how come I know they only made ciruclarly reasoned appeals to “conserved sequences” to affirm a forgone conclusion that natural selection was the cause. And that’s also how I knew they mentioned the words “selection” and “fitness” ZERO times, but design 9 times.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 1:01 am
It’s sad how some IDers have to embrace any given scientific paper as relevant to ID just because it used the term sophisticated design.
In fact, as I have shown, such redundancy, or in this case, the term seems to be better covered by degeneracy, can be quite well understood from evolutionary perspectives using the observed processes of gene duplication and preferential attachment.
In other words, science can explain the data, ID has to hope that people don’t read beyond a few bolded words.
Dan seems to be right in his observation. It seems to be quite a job to unravel all the confusions by Sal because they are not based on a logical argument but a random hodgeposh of unsupported claims, non sequiturs.
I have started to unravel the whole by showing how science has shown how systems of degeneracy and scale free nature can be explained in terms of simple processes which are actually observed.
I am sure that Sal remembers me quoting Nichols who quoted Dembski on this matter?
“Before I proceed, however, I note that Dembski makes an important concession to his critics. He refuses to make the second assumption noted above. When the EF implies that certain systems are intelligently designed, Dembski does not think it follows that there is some intelligent designer or other. He says that, “even though in practice inferring design is the first step in identifying an intelligent agent, taken by itself design does not require that such an agent be posited. The notion of design that emerges from the design inference must not be confused with intelligent agency” (TDI, 227, my emphasis).
Similarly the use of the term design should not be conflated with design relevant to ID.
Hope this clarifies the vacuity of Dembski’s arguments about the relevance of this paper to ID. That ID has to embrace science as if it were relevant to ID shows how little scientific relevance it has as science can easily include (as it already does) the scientifically relevant concepts of design.
In other words, ID, rather than replacing the methodological naturalism of science seems to have come to embrace it. It has already started to retreat to ‘front loading’, the next step, embracing science as if it were ID relevant seems all too logical.
Few however would mistake this move with any relevance to ID.
Simple Question: What ID premise or what IDer predicted the findings in this paper? What ID ‘hypothesis’ explains the findings in the paper?
Compare this with how science explains the existence of these systems… Notice the differences?
And from the paper, we learn how they explain the ‘design’
Regulatory Designs. What regulator y design could account for a gene sensing and responding to its redundant partner’s int actness? From the most general perspective, there are three possible regulatory schemes that could answer this question. Scheme A (Fig. 1B) entails a direct negative regulation of a gene by its functionally redundant partner. Scheme B (Fig. 1B) uses the
substrate abundance as a proxy for its partner’s activity. In other words, overaccumulation of substrate, potentially caused by reduced or abolished ef ficiency of one of the RBC pair members, signals for overproduction of the second member. Scheme C employs end-product inhibition. Assuming that an end-product may inhibit both redundant partners, the lack of function of one
of the partners would result in the absence of the product and, hence, relief of repression from the second partner. Conceptually, schemes B and C are symmetric. Fig. 2. The regulatory wiring for the two distalless developmental regulators dlx3 and dlx7 as deduced from morpholino antisense translation inhibitions (46).
No mention of the typical ‘design inference’ which would rely on our ignorance or inability to describe a natural mechanism(s).
Conclusion: The term design is used in a manner inconsistent with ID’s use of the term and should thus be rejected as being relevant to ID.
Of course, as a scientist, I applaud ID for embracing evolutionary science. It’s about time, all that folly about replacing methodological naturalism with something new seems to have been rejected. The move from intervention to front-loading seems the beginning of the tactical retreat of ID. A few random parting shots but the direction of ID seems to be quite predictable, it will abandon the vacuity of its foundational claims and embrace evolutionary science while arguing ‘and still it is front loaded’…
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 2:35 am
Lino’s argument about Darwin using analogy in formulating his thesis misses the point. Unlike ID which refuses to make predictions that follow from the premises, and unlike ID which refuses to provide mechanisms and pathways, Darwin went on to outline his case to provide a compelling and consistent overview of his case. Of course, when hereditary mechanisms were disovered, Darwin’s views were even more strengthened and when studies of selection showed how natural selection is a real and quantifiable phenomenon, science showed all the necessary mechanisms for Darwinism to become one of the better support theories. Of course, Darwin was clear that he did not consider selection to be the only mechanism and indeed science has been uncovering many additional mechanisms.
Nevertheless, to argue that Darwinism is based on analogy alone totally misses the point. The analogy allowed Dembski to frame a coherent hypothesis, provide mechanisms, pathways etc, and ever since Darwin researchers have added to this.
What has ID to offer? It looks designed, poof…
The analogy just does not hold Lino. Which is why analogies are such weak arguments anyway, it’s what happens afterwards that makes the difference and what does ID have to offer beyond the analogy?
Nothing… Zip… Nada… Niente… Nichts… Rien…Niets…
Prove me wrong.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 2:41 am
can someone tell us how the term “design principle” is used in (systems) biology?
Surprise…
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 2:52 am
Point in case: A search on Pubmed for “design principles” returns 507 matches. I am not sure why ID is cheering so much for one… they should be embracing fully 507 papers… Imagine what that would do for the reputation of ID. What a coup…
Of course design principle refers to ‘lawlike behavior’ which is exactly that which ID hopes to eliminate.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 3:32 am
As I promised, some review papers on the topic of biological robustness
Hiroaki Kitano BIOLOGICAL ROBUSTNESS
Nature Reviews Genetics 5, 826-837 (2004);
Robustness is a ubiquitously observed property of biological systems. It is considered to be a fundamental feature of complex evolvable systems. It is attained by several underlying principles that are universal to both biological organisms and sophisticated engineering systems. Robustness facilitates evolvability and robust traits are often selected by evolution. Such a mutually beneficial process is made possible by specific architectural features observed in robust systems. But there are trade-offs between robustness, fragility, performance and resource demands, which explain system behaviour, including the patterns of failure. Insights into inherent properties of robust systems will provide us with a better understanding of complex diseases and a guiding principle for therapy design.
Oh my.. that word ‘design’ again…
J. Stelling, U. Sauer, Z. Szallasi, F. Doyle, J. Doyle robustness of Cellular Functions. Cell, Volume 118, Issue 6, Pages 675-685
Robustness, the ability to maintain performance in the face of perturbations and uncertainty, is a long-recognized key property of living systems. Owing to intimate links to cellular complexity, however, its molecular and cellular basis has only recently begun to be understood. Theoretical approaches to complex engineered systems can provide guidelines for investigating cellular robustness because biology and engineering employ a common set of basic mechanisms in different combinations. Robustness may be a key to understanding cellular complexity, elucidating design principles, and fostering closer interactions between experimentation and theory.
There is that word again, design…
The article elaborates
Hence, although many specific aspects of the implicit robustness tradeoffs are open, we argue that general design principles exist—with the appropriate caution about general principles and simple stories of complexity and robustness. We therefore focus on a common set of basic mechanisms that confer robustness to biological and engineered systems alike.
Could not be ID then since ID does not deal in mechanisms…
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 3:43 am
One more…
We are studying these fundamental design principles in various ways. On the one hand we aim to discover further quantitative laws of genome design by the statistical analysis of large sets of genome sequence data. On the other hand we are developing mathematical models of whole genome evolution with the aim of elucidating the evolutionary origins of these genomic design principles.
Sigh… and ID claims that this shows evidence of relevance to ID?…
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 3:45 am
Perhaps relevant to the class
Speaking of Faith: Evolution and wonder: Understanding Charles Darwin
With plenty of resources, an annotated guide to the radio program and much much more.
We’ll take a fresh and thought-provoking look at Darwin’s life and ideas. He did not argue against God but against a simple understanding of the world — its beauty, its brutality, and its unfolding creation.
A great and beautiful resource, allowing us to get to know Darwin much better.
More and more of Darwin’s writings and correspondence has become available on the web, allowing us a unique insight into Darwin’s life.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 4:01 am
ONE consequence - not all possible consequences - of these functional redundancies leads to the prediction that they should be transient.
But they aren’t.
Sal says “Oh, this weakens the case for evolution, because the prediction made by evolutionary theory doesn’t hold water, and LOOK!!!! They use the word DESIGN!!! It’s a stealth ID paper!!!!”
He fails to understand what the authors are saying.
They’re saying that evolutionary theory is right.
That this ONE consequence, an increase in robustness, must be counterbalanced by other, as-of-yet not understood, consequences.
So, like good scientists, they go off and do research and LO AND BEHOLD, they find what they’re looking for.
So, Sal, what they REALLY mean in their abstract is that evolutionary theory predicts that either these redundancies be transient, or there’s stuff going on we don’t understand yet. These redundancies aren’t transient (much like the redundancies in my post, but I’m too lazy to edit), therefore let us go off on a scientific easter egg hunt.
Hey, we found what we’re looking for, and here’s our paper.
Not “Look, evolutionary theory is wrong, this stuff’s really DESIGNED!!!”
Sheesh.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 9:24 am
We’ve had 109 posts to address Hannah’s post about analogies. I think the issue has fallen decisively in favor of the pro-ID viewpoint if for no other reason Natural Selection is self-contradictory as a theory (i.e. fitness can hardly be measured, thus how can the theory be even scientific?), so by default ID is a better theory.
With that, and since the class is studying Dembski’s works, I would like to tie up some loose ends and show how his work was misrepresented by his former mentor and teacher, Jeffrey Shallit.
(Incidentally, Shallit was Dembski’s teacher 20 years ago, and when Dembski, 10 years or so after graduation, in an act of gratitude put Shallit in the acknowledgment section of Design Inference, Shallit went nuts. See: Shallit Part II. )
Shallit has spent several months writing critiques of Dembski’s work. I will briefly show that Shallit (like Ken Miller and so many others) misrepresented Dembski’s work and resorted to mathematical theatrics. These theatrical production took he and Elsberry 3 months to put together. And quite a show it was, indeed! If Oscars were handed out for style over substance, Shallit’s paper Information Theory, Evolutionary Computation, and Dembski’s Complex Specified Information would win hands down.
As to be expected there were numerous Equivocations. Here is powerful illustration of the power of equivocation to confuse issues:
Now, given the above illustration, imagine what can be done in a mathematical paper if equivocations are used, especially if one is ingenious!!! As an exercise for physics students, think about the term “Newton-meter”. Newton-meter can be equivocated since it can be used as “a measure of energy” or “a measure of torque”. One could use such an equivocation to “prove”(not really) perpetual motion machines are possible! Perpetual motion machines violate the Law of Conservation of Energy (1st law of thermodynamics). But equivocation can be used to create phony counter examples to that law.
Dembski’s formulation of the ID argues for the Conservation of CSI (4th law of thermodynamics). Did Shallit use equivocation to create phony counter examples to the Law of Conservation of CSI? The answer is yes. To do so, Shallit had to avoid Dembski’s formal definition of CSI, because had he done so, the equivocations would have been readily apparent.
That’s the preliminary. A subsequent post will go briefly into the details. One has to salute Shallit’s ingenuity and style. He used equivocation to great effect!
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 1:06 pm
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
While in the midst of somewhat humorously declaring victory, Sal accidently points out one of many problems with Dembski’s so-called mathematical proofs that life was
created by Goddesigned.Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
Nick quotes Judge Jones describing some differences between human designers and biological designers as meeting Behe’s requirements for invalidating an inductive inference. However, Behe said “To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain.”
Judge Jones listed some of the dissimilarities, but Nick didn’t explain how these differences are relevant to the property (apparent design, or IC) being explained.
It seems to me that knowing the identity of a designer or any mechanisms used are not necessary to making a design inference, hence these differences are not relevant to the property being explained.
Comment by Brian K — July 22, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
Sal shows the vacuity of the ID hypothesis via two infamous fallacies: The first one is the fallacy of proof by assertion and the second one is the fallacy of false duality.
SalWe’ve had 109 posts to address Hannah’s post about analogies. I think the issue has fallen decisively in favor of the pro-ID viewpoint if for no other reason Natural Selection is self-contradictory as a theory (i.e. fitness can hardly be measured, thus how can the theory be even scientific?), so by default ID is a better theory.
Notice how Sal ignores that natural selection is but one aspect of evolutionary theory and that ID is not even a theory as it lacks any positive hypotheses? Combine this with his unsupported assertion that natural selection is a flawed or self contradictory and we have all the ingredients of a poorly argued position.
It seems clear to me that once again, ID when faced with irrefutable objections, resorts to distortion, redirection, unsupported claims.
If Sal had addressed the real issues in a scientific or at least logical manner then I would at least have been impressed. Now it’s just par for the course for Sal.
To claim that Shallit ignored the formal definition of CSI is just plain wrong. But I understand why Sal has to resort to such desperate measures as Shallit all but destroyed the concept of CSI.
So let me repeat once again what Sal continues to ignore
Since CSI by definition is zero if natural processes can explain it, it is circular to argue that CSI somehow is a positive or independent part of the eliminative argument. At most it’s a clever magician’s trick to distract from the obvious.
Prove me wrong and show me that CSI is not self contradictory?
Or ignore the obvious and let the esteemed readers of this blog come to their own conclusions.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 2:06 pm
Before I go into detail of Shallit’s equivocations regarding genetic algorithms, here are some egregious examples Shallit and Elsberry’s equivocations on the concept of “natural”:
The word “naturally occurring” was being equivocated here. What do most people think when they hear the phrase, “naturally occuring”. Well it has nothing to do with Shallit’s usage of the phrase.
But Shallit’s equivocation (along with a long list of peer-reviewed papers) can leave the impression that such “naturally occurring computations” can arise naturally (are the product of undirected natural forces).
Having worked with nano-molecular technology I’ve not seen any of those examples from blind undirected forces in nature!
Shallit’s cites DNA computing, but an internet search will uncover that DNA computer are the result of design. I did scant work a long time ago for a team that researched DNA computing. DNA computers are anything but naturally arising. See: DNA computing.
Then Shallit refers to Quantum Computers. But Quantum Computers are anything but naturally arising, sure there is a thing called “natural computing series”, but look at what that book actually explores:
Quantum Computing : Natural Computing Series
If one looks at the description of the book, “natural computing series” has nothing to do with undirected nature creating computational processes. Such equivocations are little better than arguing: “computers are natural because they can process ‘natural numbers’, therefore computers are naturally occurring, therefore, Blind Watchmakers of nature can create computers….”
Quantum computers have to be intelligently designed to work, and they are anything but natural and simple. I therefore found it astonishing Shallit and Elsberry would appeal to such systems.
Molecular self-assembly is a hot topic in nano-technology, and self-assembly is a pre-programmed design approach for nano-molecular machines to self-assemble. Those cannot therefore be used to remotely suggest undirected natural forces cause nano-molecular machines to “self-assemble” without intelligent design.
Shallit and Elsberry used similar equivocations with Langton Ant, game of life, and chemical computing.
Finally, to finish off the theatrical show, Shallit gives a list of technical literature supposedly justifying his claim of “natural computation”. However, upon tracking down the citations, and in view of the considerations just mentioned, this was just window dressing and literature bluffing through an equivocation of the word “natural”.
Shallit and Elsberry are part of Pandas Thumb. The Discovery Institute recently caught Elsberry making literature bluffs against the work of Stephen Meyer. See : One Long Bluff.
Shallit and Elsberry’s critique of Dembski follows the same pattern of what was concocted against Stephen Meyer. The acronym for that is SSDD (Same Story, but Different Design-proponent).
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 2:17 pm
Brian: It seems to me that knowing the identity of a designer or any mechanisms used are not necessary to making a design inference, hence these differences are not relevant to the property being explained.
Let me explain why you are wrong. The argument is pretty straightforward. In order to make a reliable design inference, you need to be able to constrain your hypothesis, otherwise it explains anything and thus nothing. So in order to constrain you explanation you have to show one or more of the following (although hardly an exhaustive list): means, motives, opportunity, capability, physical evidence, hearsay, eye witnesses, pathways, mechanisms.
Let me explain: Let’s assume that we have failed so far to explain a particular system ‘X’. So now we have the following possibilities:
1. A yet to be discovered pathways explain ‘X’
a. Natural pathways
b. ‘Intelligently Designed’ pathway
So we have the null hypothesis of ‘We Don’t Know’ and we have to show that the probability of an intelligently designed pathways is at least higher than the probability of a missed pathway. In both cases, we have no additional information other than ‘we don’t know’ and yet ID insists that our ignorance should favor the intelligently designed hypothesis?
But why? ID presents no positive constrained hypothesis that allows us to determine its likelihood.
In other words, the explanatory filter is unreliable unless (as Elsberry and Wilkins or Gedanken on ISCID conclude) we allow ‘we don’t know’ as a valid node of the filter. But that would undermine the purpose of the explanatory filter since ID wants to avoid dealing in hypotheses of intelligent design.
So now we come to scientific design inferences such as found in criminology. In this case it’s not just our ignorance which leads to the conviction of criminals but rather means, motives, opportunities, physical and hearsay evidence, as well as eye witnesses. Timelines are matched carefully, motives are described and positive hypotheses of what happened are laid out for the jury to decide. The jury seldomly decides out of ignorance to convict (although even in the legal system false positives are a real possibility).
So let’s return to the eliminative approach of the explanatory filter:
The conclusion is that a design inference is inherently unreliable as we have no way to determine if the likelihood of our ignorance is smaller or higher than the likelihood of a design hypothesis. In other words, false positives are a a real an uncontrolled possibility. History has shown how the Explanatory Filter has led to countless false positives. Since as Dembski argues, false positives render the explanatory filter useless, one has to reject the filter as flawed.
Dembski does attempt to rectify this problem by arguing that false positives are a real possibility in any science we are doing, and thus ID should be no different. What Dembski however forgets is that the approach of ID of elimination only is contrary to scientific inquiry and that false positives are a real and uncontrolled feature of the explanatory filter. Rather than jumping the gun and conclude design, the explanatory filter at most can conclude that we don’t know and wait for scientific hypotheses to explain ‘X’. Since ID has remained fully vacuous when it comes to presenting its hypotheses, it seems self evident that ID fails to live up to the expectations of many.
To rescue ID from the accusation that it relies on ignorance, IDers have defined a concept they call CSI (complex specified information) which is a poorly named concept that basically repeats the explanatory filter by stating that we do not know how something happened, causing the low probability and thus high ‘information’ content. Of course, once we describe the pathways, the information by definition goes to zero and we are left with no CSI.
In other words, CSI is just a circular argument and is not independent of the explanatory filter but rather a reformulation of the same concept: our level of ignorance.
And from this ignorance, ID thus attempts to argue that ID is the best hypothesis. So either ID is the ‘we don;t know’ position or ID has positive hypotheses different from ‘we don;t know’.
Since ID refuses to provide such hypotheses, ID s thus not different from ‘we don’t know’ or an argument from ignorance.
Hope this explains.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
J Cosgrove wrt Post #63:
I find your misrepresentation of Valentine a bit discouraging, seeing that we already covered that topic in a different thread earlier. I was wondering how your claim could be possible when I am looking at pictures of fossils from the precambrian? Go to http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/page/default.asp?site=1&id=529 to see of the world’s oldest known fossil chordate, from the Ediacara biota of the Flinders Ranges. The tiny, 6 cm-long fossil is the body mould of the first known animal from the phylum to which vertebrates belong.
Furthermore, what about things like sponges, corals, echinoderms, and mollusks like Kimberella making their appearance long before the Cambrian Explosion, in the Ediacaran? How can you continue to support this claim given the physical evidence?
Turns out Wikipedia seems to have some pretty accurate information in regards to the Origin of the Phyla before the Cambrian.
Comment by Mike Hannigan — July 22, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
In a last spurt of unsupported assertions, Sal makes some interesting flawed assertions
Having worked with nano-molecular technology I’ve not seen any of those examples from blind undirected forces in nature!
Remember that in order for Sal’s objection to be relevant it has to match the argument of evolutionists. But evolutionists do not claim that there are no undirected forces, in fact they have identified natural selection as one of these forces. Other ‘directional forces’ include constraints, either physical, chemical etc.
It thus seems clear that the conclusion has to be that Sal has changed the definition in his response to ignore the part which argues that there are directional forces in nature.
This is a common confusion observed when creationists argue against evolution. How could blind chance explain ‘X’…
Nothing new here but still worth pointing out that ID has not yet outgrown the fallacies of its roots.
Sal asserts, without much elaboration that
The word “naturally occurring” was being equivocated here. What do most people think when they hear the phrase, “naturally occuring”. Well it has nothing to do with Shallit’s usage of the phrase.
Perhaps the problem is that Sal misunderstands how Shallit et al are using the phrase. We have seen how Sal got quite excited when a paper mentioned “design principles”. It’s important that one understands how such phrases are being used and one cannot really hold the authors responsible for the unfamiliarity of some of its readers with how these terms are used in science.
Sal ends with an interesting unsupported accusation
Shallit and Elsberry are part of Pandas Thumb. The Discovery Institute recently caught Elsberry making literature bluffs against the work of Stephen Meyer. See : One Long Bluff.
But as I and others have shown, these are not literary bluffs but rather clear examples of how Meyer selectively represents the data for the Cambrian while ignoring much of the recent data.
Once again, Elsberry and others at Panda’s Thumb have exposed how ID’s arguments are often based on ignorance of theory, empirical data. Meyers paper in this case was no different.
I personally showed how Meyer appealed to a paper by Valentine to conclude that complexity increased.
Meyer: One way to estimate the amount of new CSI [2] that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91—93).
Note that CSI cannot be computed as suggested by Meyer but let’s drop this conflation of terms for the moment.
When reading the actual paper, imagine my surprise when Valentine claimed that
Cell-phenotype numbers in living phyla, and a model of cell-phenotype number increase, suggest an origin of metazoans near 600 my ago, followed by a passive rise in body-plan complexity. Living phyla appearing during the Cambrian explosion have a Hox/HOM gene cluster, implying its presence in the common ancestral trace makers. The explosion required a repatterning of gene expression that mediated the development of novel body plans but evidently did not require an important, abrupt increase in genomic or morphologic complexity.
Valentine is explicit:
At present there is no evidence of a major step in body-plan complexity during the Cambrian explosion.The Cambrian explosion represents a remarkable jump in the specified complexity or “complex specified information” (CSJ) of the biological world.
Panda’s Thumb exposes many other short comings and omissions in Meyer’s Hopeless Monster which explores the claims in Meyer’s paper
Meyer, Stephen C. 2004. The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories. Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington 117(2):213-239.
As Sal explains, the Discovery Institute ‘responded’ and their ‘response’ is analyzed in The DI Strikes Back
Hope this helps. If there are other assertions by Sal which remain unsupported, please let me know and I will address them. I hope that I have managed to provide the reader with the necessary tools to make their own decision as to the relevancy of Sal’s comments.
An argument is only as good as its logical or factual foundations.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
Cosgrave quotes the following from Valentine
o we can say that Valentine is a believer in natural selection and Darwin’s ideas. But then Valentine has made some other statements about the Cambrian Explosion and Darwin. There are several but I will repeat the one I mentioned before.
“Darwin had a lot of trouble with the fossil record because if you look at the record of phyla in the rocks as fossils why when they first appear we already see them all. The phyla are fully formed. It’s as if the phyla were created first and they were modified into classes and we see that the number of classes peak later than the number of phyla and the number of orders peak later than that. So it’s kind of a top down succession, you start with this basic body plans, the phyla, and you diversify them into classes, the major sub-divisions of the phyla, and these into orders and so on. So the fossil record is kind of backwards from what you would expect from in that sense from what you would expect from Darwin’s ideas. Although once we get into the fossil record where we got a complete fossil record we can see the gradual changes within lineages as Darwin predicted.”
What Valentine argue is why in Darwin’s days this ‘upside down’ argument as well as the lacking fossils were seen as real objections to Darwin’s theory. Of course, what was valid in Darwin’s days hardly means that it still remains valid. In this case it was our ignorance of the processes involved and our ignorance of the fossil record that led Darwin to an unenviable position of having little data to support his position (at least to explain the Cambrian explosion).
So which is the real James Valentine? I say they both are and that he is saying that Darwin’s ideas of slow gradual diversification of species are not supported by what first appeared during the Cambrian Explosion but only what appeared later in the fossil record.
Nope, he is saying that Darwin had a hard time in his days to explain the Cambrian. Science since then has slowly unraveled much of the mystery and found that the Cambrian is well explainable in Darwinian terms.
I explained the fallacy of the top down versus bottom up:
TOP-DOWN OR BOTTOM-UP
Some critics of evolution make much of the “top-down” versus the “bottom-up” pattern of appearance of higher taxa. That is, phylum-level diversity reaches its peak in the fossil record before class-level diversity, and the class-level diversity before that of orders, etc. These critics interpret this apparent “top-down” pattern as contrary to expectations from evolutionary theory. However, this pattern is generated by the way in which species are assigned to higher taxa. The classification system is hierarchical with species being grouped into ever larger and more inclusive categories. When this classification hierarchy is applied to a diversifying evolutionary tree, a “top down” pattern will automatically result. Consider species belonging to a single evolving line of descent given genus-level status. This genus is then grouped with other closely related lines of descent into a family. The common ancestors of these genera are by definition included within that family. Those ancestors must logically be older than any of the other species within the family. Thus the family level taxon would appear in the fossil record before most of the genera included within it. The “top down” pattern of taxa appearance is therefore entirely consistent with a branching tree of life.
I have also had a hard time finding the quote Cosgrave gives us of Valentine. I will report back when I have located it in its full context.
Cosgrave then pulls a non sequitur
While Cosgrave claims that I ‘made his point’ all this shows is that the fossils are still lacking in certain periods although the fossil record is but one way to recover phylogenies. Even since Valentine made these statements new fossils extending to the pre-cambrian have been found.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
As I thought:
Chapter 5 of Origin of Phyla p 153
“Darwin had a lot of trouble with the fossil record, which did not seem to support a pattern of gradual and incessant morphological change such as he envisioned
…[quote from Origin omitted
Today the fossil record is far better known than in Darwin’s time, and methods have been developed that help circumvent its imperfection. Analyses of evolutionary events that are registered by fossils are becoming available at increasingly fine resolutions.
…
Despite these wonderful properties, the record remains incomplete and biased, and poses as many fascinating questions as it provides answers.
More Valentine
JW Valentine, D Jablonski and DH Erwin, Fossils, molecules and embryos: new perspectives on the Cambrian explosion, Development, Vol 126, Issue 5 851-859, 1999
The Cambrian explosion is named for the geologically sudden appearance of numerous metazoan body plans (many of living phyla) between about 530 and 520 million years ago, only 1.7% of the duration of the fossil record of animals. Earlier indications of metazoans are found in the Neoproterozic; minute trails suggesting bilaterian activity date from about 600 million years ago. Larger and more elaborate fossil burrows appear near 543 million years ago, the beginning of the Cambrian Period. Evidence of metazoan activity in both trace and body fossils then increased during the 13 million years leading to the explosion. All living phyla may have originated by the end of the explosion. Molecular divergences among lineages leading to phyla record speciation events that have been earlier than the origins of the new body plans, which can arise many tens of millions of years after an initial branching. Various attempts to date those branchings by using molecular clocks have disagreed widely. While the timing of the evolution of the developmental systems of living metazoan body plans is still uncertain, the distribution of Hox and other developmental control genes among metazoans indicates that an extensive patterning system was in place prior to the Cambrian. However, it is likely that much genomic repatterning occurred during the Early Cambrian, involving both key control genes and regulators within their downstream cascades, as novel body plans evolved.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 3:08 pm
Who wrote the following?
SUMMARY AND PROSPECTS
In sum, the fossil record: (1) indicates that metazoans certainly originated significantly earlier than 570 Ma and probably earlier than 600 Ma, but is otherwise silent on this point, (2) suggests that minute bilaterians were present by at least 565 Ma and probably earlier, (3) indicates that larger bilaterians were present by 543 Ma, and (4) suggests that a number of the body
plans that today characterize major taxa first appear during or ‘shortly’ before the interval from about 530 to 520 Ma, when the range of activities of benthic organisms increased markedly.
Beyond this information, interpretations of the events in early metazoan history are based on the topology of the phylogenetic tree, the pathways of morphological change implied by the fossils and by the constraints imposed by our understanding of
evolutionary processes.
While the time of origin of the Metazoa is not known, an age of 700 Ma or less would not conflict with the evidence now at hand, though it may have been significantly earlier. Is 170 million years long enough for the evolution of the Cambrian
fauna from the earliest animals? Clearly, much of body-plan evolution was accomplished by changes in patterns of gene expression. Many genes that mediate the development of disparate phyla are conserved after over half a billion years of
independent evolution in lineages that have evolved independent architectures. Gene regulatory elements were probably the most important actors in this process. The rapidity of this sort of
evolution has not been formally evaluated, but the use and reuse of established signaling pathways (Gonzalez-Crespo and Levine, 1994) and other regulatory cascades (Warren et al., 1994) seem likely to provide evolutionary shortcuts in the
production of novel morphologies. We have every reason to believe that the pace of evolution as suggested by plausible interpretations of the fossil record could easily be achieved.
Fossils, molecules and embryos: new perspectives on the Cambrian explosion Development 126, 851-859 (1999)
Yes you guessed right
Valentine, Jablonski and Erwin
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 3:30 pm
Quoth Salvador:
No circular reasoning required. Rather, conserved sequences are a tell-tale sign of evolution through mutation and natural selection in action. Conservation, as part of the entire hierarchical pattern of similarities and difference, constitutes solid forensic evidence of evolutionary relationships between biological organisms. It circular only inasmuch as all forensic evidence happens to be circular.
However, let us go back to your original claim that “redundant” systems are not explainable in terms of standard evolutionary theory. The paper you cite gives an explanation of redunancy that is fully compatible with standard evolutionary theory, proposing that, at least in some cases, redundancy is a side effect of separate, evolutionary advantageous functionality involved in gene regulation. Since you haven’t addressed this point at all in your reply, I take it that you concede that your original argument was incorrect, and will refrain from using it the future?
Amazing! It as if the paper we are discussing is a descriptive account of a particular mechanism involved in gene regulation, and not a study in theoretical population genetics! And it is as if population genetics models, being highly over-simplified representations of idealized versions of biological phenomena, are not easily applicable to studying evolution in the real world. Who knew?
The word “evolution” and its variants appear 19 times in the body of the paper . I was too lazy to count the number of occurrances of the word “the”. Is an argument from word counts really the best you can come up with?
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 22, 2006 @ 4:12 pm
What basis do you have for that claim. Circular reasoning to justify circular reasoning. Do you have anything better?
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 4:30 pm
Salvador questions Leonid who stated that
Leonid Rather, conserved sequences are a tell-tale sign of evolution through mutation and natural selection in action.
Sal asks: What basis do you have for that claim. Circular reasoning to justify circular reasoning. Do you have anything better?
Empirical evidence, theoretical evidence, logical evidence. Nothing circular about this really.
1. We observe variation and selection in action. Endler has provided many examples of natural selection in the wild. Lenski is collecting much of such data about bacteria.
2. Without selection, the genome data would quickly diverge due to (random) mutations. We observe such effects for instance in pseudogenes. Neutral evolution is an extremely important part of evolutionary theory as well but more on that aspect in a later posting.
3. Theoretical modeling and information theory shows how variation and selection or absence thereof can explain the amount of information in a part of the genome. Remove the selective pressures and the genome ‘randomizes’, reducing its information content.
So yes, there is much better data than the circular arguments of CSI for instance to support evolutionary theory.
It’s the coherent and consistent picture that flows from simple and not so simple processes and mechanisms which makes evolutionary theory such a powerful concept.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 4:55 pm
Salvador:
You spend a long time casting aspertions on Shallit’s intellecutal honesty, and discussing the concept of equivocation. However, you have so far failed to show even a single instance where Shallit misrepresents Dembski: your one attempt to the effect is entirely unconvincing, as discussed above. From the parts I’ve read, Shallit and Elseberry’s paper appears to be a rigorous and accurate critique of Dembski’s work, and infinitely more clear and better written than anything from Dembski himself.
I think every mathematics student should read at least some Dembski, if only to for an excellent primer on how not to communicate one’s ideas. Dembski expands lots of verbiage and goes into needless detail on extremely simple and well-known mathematical concepts, but plays fast and loose with important definitions and misses crucial detail when proposing concepts of his own. The “displacement theorem” paper, for instance, is rife with such examples. See my comment #5 in this thread, for instance.
Your reply to Shallit’s observation about “naturally-occurring tools available to build simple computational processes” completely misses the mark. Here is the complete paragraph, including the important opening sentence:
What Shallit and Elseberry are arguing is that there many processes in nature that can be described as carrying out computation - that is taking an input from the environment, and based on a series of internal rules, producing some output. Therefore, if we define CSI as something that can only be an output of computational processes (and S&E explicitly state that this only one possible view), then many naturally-occurring processes qualify, and hence CSI is not necessarily an artificial phenomenon.
Finally you write:
There is no need to imagine it - just go read some of Dembski’s writings. His abuse of the term “information” alone is egregious, as evidenced in the “formal” definition of CSI you presented above.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 22, 2006 @ 5:06 pm
PvM:
Thank you for your excellent answer to Sal. I can’t think of anything I’d like to add to it at the moment.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 22, 2006 @ 5:26 pm
Let’s address Behe’s claim in some more detail as Hannah ended her posting with it
Behe Cellular machines and machines in our everyday world share a relevant property — their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts — and so inductive conclusions to design can be drawn on the basis of that shared property. To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain. Neither the judge nor the Darwinists he uncritically embraces have done that in respect to intelligent design.
I would like to focus on their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts — and so inductive conclusions to design can be drawn on the basis of that shared property.
Purposeful is a concept that can easily lead to equivocation so let’s call it functional. A complexity born of a functional arrangement of parts.
Behe suggests that induction can be used to link this to design. And I agree, design needs to be explained but rather than use induction, or analogy, why not use actual mechanisms? And this is where Darwin addressed the issue so well, centuries ago by pointing out that design in nature can be explained by natural mechanisms such as variation and selection. Two points to ponder: Darwin did not exclusively consider selection to be THE mechanism of evolution, just a very important one. In fact, presently we know that various other mechanisms exists as well. Secondly, Darwin did not prove that no intelligence was involved, in fact such a hypothesis is always possible, but rather than no intelligence is required. In other words, Darwin explained how observations could be explained in simple and natural terms.
As Dembski has pointed out, the existence of such pathways has rendered ID irrelevant by virtue of the Occam’s razor.
Dembski If it could be shown that biological systems like the bacterial flagellum that are wonderfully complex, elegant, and integrated could have been formed by a gradual Darwinian process (which by definition is non-telic), then intelligent design would be falsified on the general grounds that one doesn’t invoke intelligent causes when purely natural causes will do. In that case Occam’s razor finishes off intelligent design quite nicely.
William A. Dembski Is Intelligent Design Testable? 01.24.01
Richard Wein concludes that
It is refreshing that, by his invocation of Occam’s razor, Dembski seems to have recognized that the hypothesis of natural evolution is more parsimonious than the design hypothesis. One is bound to ask, then, why he thinks a hypothesis (design) which is entirely lacking in detail should be preferred to a more parsimonious hypothesis (natural evolution) with limited detail. Clearly design hypotheses have a very privileged status in Dembski’s system.
Dembski also stated that
Theistic evolution at best includes God as an unnecessary rider in an otherwise purely naturalistic account of life. As such, theistic evolution violates Occam’s razor. Occam’s razor is a regulative principle for how scientists are supposed to do their science. According to this principle, superfluous entities are to be rigorously excised from science. Thus, since God is an unnecessary rider in our understanding of the natural world, theistic evolution ought to dispense with all talk of God outright and get rid of the useless adjective “theistic.”
William A.Dembski What every theologian should know about creation, evolution and design © Leadership University 2002
Behe’s appeal to induction seems to have been solidly rejected by Darwin himself, and over time science has only served to further provide evidence to that extent.
An analogy is a weak argument since when it is presented with ‘hard evidence’ of the existence of mechanisms that explain the system, it has no recourse but to retreat. Analogy at most can state that we observe something in nature which is functional and its ‘design’ (don’t get too excited about the usage of this word in this context) appears to have some similarity with known intelligently designed systems such as the mouse trap. Of course the dissimilarities are also obvious: the mousetrap does not reproduce, the mousetrap does not have a genotype-to-phenotype mapping. And yet these are exactly the mechanisms needed by evolution to explain the origin and evolution of ‘designed’ systems.
Analogy at most can be a starter for science, as it was for Darwin, and until ID can match or exceed Darwin in showing how the analogy leads to predictions, mechanisms, and a coherent explanatory picture, ID may have a lot of work ahead of it. Especially if Dembski is right and ID is not really in the business of providing mechanisms (read hypotheses) for its designs.
Science does not reject design a-priori but rather a-posteriori because of the above mentioned flaws.
Van Till explains it well in his response to Dembski
Second: How could we take Dembski’s references to “the absence of detailed testable models
for how material mechanisms could have formed irreducibly complex molecular machines” and
to “the total absence of causally specific proposals of how [indirect Darwinian pathways] might
work in practice” to be anything other than appeals to ignorance? It is the absence of successful
causally specific proposals that Dembski takes as evidence for form-conferring intervention by
an unembodied designer. Furthermore, Dembski’s demand for the formulation of a “causally
specific” proposal for an indirect Darwinian pathway—of the sort that would satisfy Dembski’s
requirement for the computation of a numerical probability for its success—is more than
sufficiently excessive to preclude its ever being performed to his satisfaction. One can imagine
circumstances in which the strategy of “eliminative induction” might be helpful, but Dembski’s
attempt to employ it as a strategy to escape the charge that ID conclusions are consistently built
on appeals to ignorance is a complete failure. Dembski’s use of eliminative induction does not at
all “establish” specified complexity. The best it can do is to hold open a small door to its logical
possibility by calling attention to cases where causally specific accounts of the formation of X
have not yet been formulated to the satisfaction of ID advocates.
Howard Van Till’s response (submitted 18 October, 2002) to William Dembski’s remarks, “Naturalism’s Argument from Invincible Ignorance,” posted 6 September, 2002, on ISCID Forums.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 5:29 pm
What books by Dembski do you have?
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 5:36 pm
Sal: What books by Dembski do you have?
Note that Dembski’s books are not the only source of information. In fact ID proponents often refer to Dembski’s work on searching large spaces and other online papers to defend Dembski’s position.
Nevertheless, Dembski’s work is helpful in understanding and rebutting many of his claims.
I personally own:
The Design Revolution: Answering the Toughest Questions About Intelligent Design by William A. Dembski and Charles W. Colson
Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science & Theology by William A. Dembski
Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing by John Wilson and William A. Dembski
No Free Lunch: Why Specified Complexity Cannot Be Purchased without Intelligence by William A. Dembski
Debating Design: From Darwin to DNA by William A. Dembski and Michael Ruse
Science and Evidence for Design in the Universe (Proceedings of the Wethersfield Institute) by Michael J. Behe, William A. Dembski, Stephen C. Meyer, and Michael Behe
Unapologetic Apologetics: Meeting the Challenges of Theological Studies by William A. Dembski and Jay Wesley Richards
The only relevant work I miss is his original book although I have his thesis work IIRC.
The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities (Cambridge Studies in Probability, Induction and Decision Theory) by William A. Dembski, Brian Skyrms, Ernest W. Adams, and Ken Binmore
In addition I have close to 100 additional books on evolutionary biology, philosophy, intelligent design and theology.
Yes I am a knowledge junky…
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 5:45 pm
Going back in time, to comment 2 by secondclass:
I’m not entirely sure what definition you’re working with? We’re using the one in the paper you linked to, i.e., χ = -log2 [M • N • φs(T) • P(T|H)]. Although the probability of H (the relevant chance hypothesis, including Darwinian and other non-design mechanisms) is taken into account, there isn’t anything in there about ruling it out a priori.
Certainly one can show theoretically that CSI entails design– most of Design Inference seems to be focused on that problem– but “design” isn’t part of the definition. Since I tend to get scolded for being too theoretical, my argument above was focused on the empirical aspect of things. Just because we think “we’ve proved it” in math doesn’t mean it isn’t worth checking it in the field…
Actually some of us in class– from both sides of the debate– are right now plotting how best to test that first statement.
Per 6–You’ve a long description of dissimilarities; we’ve granted there are dissimilarities. So?
comment 7, by PvM
Let’s for the moment skip ’specification’ as this is trivial in biology. So we are left with complexity. So what does it mean that something contains CSI? It means that science has been unable so far to explain something.
It’s really easy to attack something if you make up skip relevant pieces and define the rest to suit your immediate needs. But it doesn’t do much for the argument.
How so? Since Bacon science has relied entirely on induction. And thus, by necessity, on analogy. Anytime you wish to deal in empericism you must work with induction.
Be so good as to back that up.
Comment 29:
This one made me smile… it reminds me of the notoriously bad “kindergarten argument” from the other side: “I’ll believe in evolution once I see a monkey turn into a person!”
Comment 86
Yes; atoms are now pretty much universally accepted, and our new knowledge of them is based entirely on induction, and thus ultimately on analogies.
Comment by Hannah — July 22, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
… btw, rereading my comment above it sounded a bit dismissive, as if I didn’t appreciate all your long critiques as much as I did. Sorry about that… I think it’s a side effect of answering too many things at once, after a hundred comments; but please don’t take it personally.
Comment by Hannah — July 22, 2006 @ 6:15 pm
Hanna:
Well, this should be easy to disprove by counterexample. So, Hannah, why not give us a hypothesis that logically follows from ID.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 6:17 pm
Hannah responded to my claim “Let’s for the moment skip ’specification’ as this is trivial in biology. So we are left with complexity. So what does it mean that something contains CSI? It means that science has been unable so far to explain something.”
Dembski: Specification in biology always makes reference in some way to an organism’s function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. The functionality of organisms can be specified in any number of ways.
Howard van Till writes
Is the bacterial flagellum specified? Using Dembski’s own criterion, only if it exhibits a pattern that is detachable - wholly independent of the event that produced it. Appearing to set aside his laboriously crafted formalism regarding the specification and detachability requirements, Dembski simply asserts that in the case of biological systems specification always refers to function, and declares that biological functions are inherently detachable from the particular biological systems that instantiate them.
Hannah: It’s really easy to attack something if you make up skip relevant pieces and define the rest to suit your immediate needs. But it doesn’t do much for the argument.
Specification is trivial in biology, function is sufficient as per Dembski. I invite you to explain why you believe I have either ignored relevant pieces or defined to suit my needs?
Such claims could benefit from some examples, logical reasoning, which would allow me to respond in a meaningful manner to your claims.
Hannah’s definition of Specification relies on Dembski’s latest attempt to rectify the flaws in his earlier definitions. But all this seems irrelevant to biology where function is sufficient as a specification. Or has that also changed?
And where has Dembski applied his latest definition of specification?
A good overview for laymen of Dembski’s arguments in this paper are provided by Mark Frank
Concluding that We do come across incredible coincidences (like Hand X) and the rational thing to do is to reject the underlying chance hypothesis (like a random deal). However, this decision is not based on the convoluted and loosely defined concept of specification. It is based on the simple fact there are better explanations.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 6:20 pm
Well, Salvador has, on this blog, suggested that creating life in a test tube might be convincing, but in essence nothing short of that will do.
Do you agree this is a “kindergarten argument”, then?
How about Behe, who says essentially the same thing in regard to the bacterial flagellum, i.e. that evolving one in the lab is virtually the only thing that will convince him he’s wrong.
Another “kindergarten argument”?
If you see those arguments for what they are, then perhaps you’re not as immune to rational thought and scientific progress as some of your better-known ID fellow travellers are …
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
Regarding “conserved sequences” (DNA’s that are shared between species or organisms)
Actually the theory of “conserved sequence” via natural selection has been refuted by the neutralists. Recall Kimura, that most molecular evolution must be neutral and not subject to selection.
How can Natural Selection possibly police the evolution of 4 billion nucleotides in a creature like a human in order to maintain large chuncks of “conserved DNA” (DNA identical between humans). How many humans must be killed to preserve this kind of DNA purity over time (something like 4 Billion Nucleotides identical)? There aren’t that many humans to make that even possible!!!!!
Thus the “conserved DNA” argument has been theoretically refuted by the neturalists based on cost issues alone. It is only defended in the literature via circular reasoning.
Doubt me? Any one game to argue against my position from basic equations of population genetics?
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 6:23 pm
I wrote: No hypotheses logically follow from ID…
Hannah asks: Be so good as to back that up.
Observation, and logic. Perhaps I should have been somewhat more clearer. No ID relevant hypotheses follow logically from ID other than their claims that evolutionary theory (or Darwinism) cannot explain ‘x’.
1. Elimination of evolutionary pathways does nothing to add credibility to ID
2. ID cannot logically make claims about much of anything without resorting to additional assumptions. Notice the Cambrian explosion or the genetic code or Junk DNA.
3. Perhaps we could discuss an example of what Hannah considers to be a worthy ID hypothesis and we can explore my reasoning in more detail. The argument is simple that since ID is eliminative in nature and refuses to constrain its designer(s) it cannot make any fruitful ID hypotheses beyond ‘we don’t know’…
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 6:25 pm
How do you compute H? Can you show us for, say, the bacterial flagellum?
Which non-design mechanisms enter into that computation? All of them? Or just the ones we can list today?
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 6:31 pm
Sal argues:
Actually the theory of “conserved sequence” via natural selection has been refuted by the neutralists. Recall Kimura, that most molecular evolution must be neutral and not subject to selection.
An interesting confusion of neutrality and selection. What Kimura argued is that much of the variation found in the genome is due to neutrality. We now know that this is correct, most genomic variation is neutral or weakly selectable. However conservation is a feature of selection and selection is still a very important aspect of evolutionary theory and empirical data.
How can Natural Selection possibly police the evolution of 4 billion nucleotides in a creature like a human in order to maintain large chuncks of “conserved DNA” (DNA identical between humans). How many humans must be killed to preserve this kind of DNA purity over time (something like 4 Billion Nucleotides identical)? There aren’t that many humans to make that even possible!!!!!
A fascinating bait and switch. We argue that it is selection which conserves the genome and Sal argues how could it be that neutrality which should lead to the genome diffusing be responsible? I have seldomly seen a better example of how not to address a claim.
Thus the “conserved DNA” argument has been theoretically refuted by the neturalists based on cost issues alone. It is only defended in the literature via circular reasoning.
A totally flawed conclusion. Neutralists have not refuted conserved DNA argument, in fact neutralists accept selection and its effects on conservation. What they argue is that the variation in the genome is mostly neutral.
Apples and oranges.
Doubt me? Any one game to argue against my position from basic equations of population genetics?
You want to use simplistic models to argue for your position when more realistic models show you to be wrong?
Garbage in garbage out. Population genetics is out Sal, information theoretical science is in. Population genetics was a zeroth order approximation of the mechanisms of evolution.
Hannah: Although the probability of H (the relevant chance hypothesis, including Darwinian and other non-design mechanisms) is taken into account, there isn’t anything in there about ruling it out a prior…
No of course not this is the specification step. The argument is that in calculating information, CSI explicitly defines CSI to be zero if natural processes can explain the system.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 6:54 pm
Sal: How many humans must be killed to preserve this kind of DNA purity over time (something like 4 Billion Nucleotides identical)? There aren’t that many humans to make that even possible!!!!!
Still confused by the limited applicability of Haldane? Despite me showing that relaxation of Haldane’s arguments to more reasonable assumptions makes it quite possible?
Funny…
Particularly funny since IDers like Sal have argued that Avida does not accurately represent evolution and thus should be rejected, yet they also seem to insist that despite known limitations of Haldane’s argument, it somehow shows evolution to be impossible.
A the smell of self contradiction in the morning, I love it…
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 6:57 pm
Don’t you mean P(T|H)?
I can’t for the flagellum, at least not today. But as for the first life, for chance and law mechanisms, today, tomorrow or any time in the future, Trevors and Abel have shown, the probability is effectively zero. They use “proof by contradiction” to nail down all possible cases, observed, or which later may be observed or even conceived of.
See:
Perfect Architectures Which Scream Design
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 7:00 pm
PvM
Well, I meant to write a long logical argument in response to your first critique, since it was long and I assumed well thought out, but when I sat down to it it seemed you had decided to attack made-up arguments instead of ours, and there was very little substantive to address.It’s difficult to argue if we disagree on the essential premises– what ID theory is, for instance, or how specified complexity is defined. And I know you are entirely sure that ID is vacuous, and that specified complexity means nothing, and so forth and so on… but you haven’t convinced me of that yet, so if you begin with those premises, and then set out to prove them, you will end up with nothing but circular reasoning.
As I mentioned the formulation of specified complexity we are using is the one given in Dembski’s 2005 paper on the subject. If you want to debate that concept it would help if you would use the same definitions, or we will end up talking through each other. A convenient “simplification” such as “specified complexity is everything we can’t explain” really doesn’t serve any legitimate purpose.
Comment by Hannah — July 22, 2006 @ 7:14 pm
So you disagree with Dembski’s claim that function suffices as specification in biology?
Of course, the issue of specification is irrelevant, what is circular is the definition of CSI
CSI is the negative log2 of the probability that something can be explained by natural processes.
CSI is thus zero when the probability approaches 1 as it would for any plausible explanation.
In other words, CSI defines information to be zero if natural pathways can be shown to exist.
Perhaps your real argument is with Dembski?
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 7:20 pm
Specified complexity is defined as -log2 [M • N • φs(T) • P(T|H)]
My argument is with you. Care to dispute anything in the actual definition?
Comment by Hannah — July 22, 2006 @ 7:35 pm
Hannah,
Could you please respond to my questions in post 17?
Comment by alienward — July 22, 2006 @ 8:05 pm
Alienward–
Our argument is not from ignorance, but rather from knowledge; knowledge as to the known causes of CSI. And thanks for your proposed revision, but I’ll stick with my own claim.
We haven’t any of the first, and the mere presence of CSI is (circumstantial) evidence of the second; therefore intelligent agency is the best explanation.
Comment by Hannah — July 22, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
Actually, it is the definition of the context dependent specified complexity. Has Dembski dropped his original definition of CSI?
Given the circular nature of the definition, I am not surprised.
Dembski argues that M*N is of the order of 10 to the power 120 thus approximately
10^120 ·φS(T)·P(T|H)
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 8:26 pm
Hannah,
Swarming tactics may be in play in this debate and they are used when it is clear one side is starting to argue it’s case too well. I consider alienward’s post a derailment.
This weblog is for the students to have their questions answered, NOT for students to be badgered.
The proper technique when one is massively out numbered in a thread is to take on the poster with the most substantive issues of interest to you.
Your technique for requesting definitions be laid down is excellent. Let PvM answer your questions since you’re the one who started the thread and he has chosen to participate.
Let them argue their case to persuade you, you are under no obligation to waste your time defending ideas. You are here to learn. I recommend you take the opportunity to let them give you their best shot.
They can avoid dealing with arguments by interrogating you if you allow them to do so.
I suggest you be the one to ask question, and let them try to answer. You’re here to learn not to defend ideas, right?
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 8:29 pm
PvM–
Sure, -log2 [10120 • φs(T) • P(T|H)] is the formula for the general, context-independent case. If you’d rather dispute that one that’s perfectly alright.
Comment by Hannah — July 22, 2006 @ 8:35 pm
Sal shows once again how vacuous his proposals are
Let them argue their case to persuade you, you are under no obligation to waste your time defending ideas. You are here to learn. I recommend you take the opportunity to let them give you their best shot.
Waste your time defending ideas…
Hannah: We haven’t any of the first, and the mere presence of CSI is (circumstantial) evidence of the second; therefore intelligent agency is the best explanation.
Well we have evidence of natural processes generating CSI if Dembski is to be believed but I wonder why he accepted this since the moment the probability goes to 1, the old definition of information went to zero and the new one to a negative number. In either case, it is clear that CSI cannot by definition be generated by natural processes.
To claim CSI as evidence of intelligence is a circular argument. In fact, none of them show that intelligent design is the better explanation. In fact the best explanation is ‘we don’t know’ since there is no positive hypothesis of ID to test the reliability of the claim, rendering the explanatory filter unreliable.
The claim that ID is the best explanation merely reduces ID to the ‘we don’t know explanation’ since it cannot compete with it.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 8:38 pm
Offtopic– I am getting warnings of an unresponsive script which makes this page load rather slowly. Is this becoming a problem for other people? I am looking into ways to host it elsewhere– the problem seems to be with a toolbox script shared among several blogs– but in the meantime should I disconnect it? Which would you all rather– a slow page and such things as comment preview, or no preview option and a faster-loading page?
Comment by Hannah — July 22, 2006 @ 8:39 pm
I asked him, “What books by Dembski do you have?” No response yet. I would be curious, as of July 21, 2006 what books by Dembski did Leonid actually have since he is so vigorously arguing that Dembski was refuted.
Salvador
Hint:
I was in a similar debate at ARN. 90% of those who were so sure Dembski was wrong read the critiques without actually reading the original source material! They were critizing literature which they did not have any access to nor ever did! They uncritically accepted every misrepresentation of Dembski’s work that the “expert critics” fed them. How scientific is that?
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 8:53 pm
Well, it’s more like this page loads slowly because of the script, and when the script causes it to load TOO slowly, your browser gives up.
We’re going to teach you to be precise if it kills us :)
And, yes, I’m seeing the same problem. Firefox/MacOSX.
Well, when the script takes too long, the preview button goes away. In my case that seems to be around 90-100 posts.
One of my suggestions to Alan was that he cut off discussion when we hit, oh, 50 or so responses.
If you could make the “Say It!” button also disappear when the “Preview” button disappears that would automatically enforce a thread length limit! :) :)
I’m joking.
This has got to be the dumbest way to implement preview functionality in a blog or forum I’ve seen yet. It’s not like it’s a science … or even ID.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 8:57 pm
Why would I want to add to that charlatan’s wealth?
Now, the only “misrepresentation” you’ve blathered about is the fact that Shallit and Elseberry use a mathematical rather than English-language definition, one which appears to capture the essence of what Dembksi’s said.
Since they’re looking at Dembski’s math they HAVE to base their critique on a formal definition. There’s no choice.
You’re in essence claiming that since Dembski didn’t provide an adequate formal definition, no disproof is possible.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 9:02 pm
I have found that 90% of the ARN ID defenders were unfamiliar with the evolutionary science they opposed.
Me too can make up subjective and unsupportable assertions of little relevance.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 9:08 pm
Salvadore’s comment about debate (and his comments in a post he made to UD about “how to become an Internet Jeddi”) deeply disturbs me, and it triggers something that I find very bothersome about the ID movement at large.
It’s the very notion that debate about ID vs. evolution will settle ANYTHING. It won’t. Science is going to do science and remain science no matter how many times Salvador or any other IDer proclaims “victory”.
Or no matter how many times Hannah proclaims herself unconvinced.
Science will march on. Succeed in putting ID in the classroom, and science will STILL march on because science isn’t done in the classroom. It is only taught in the classroom.
The notion that ID might win out over science if IDers employ superior debating skills wigs me out.
Employing superior debating skills without adhering to the rules of formal debate, I might add (in which a false claim of a fact put forth knowingly causes you to automatically lose the debate).
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 9:11 pm
Don,
Since you seem so expert in saying Dembski provided no formal definition, as of today, what books by Dembski do you have?
I take that to mean you don’t have Dembski’s book,and thus are in really no position to say whether he did or did not give a formal definition as I represented it. You, like others simply take Shallit’s word for it. Fair enough, but then you’re really not in a position to write book reviews for something you haven’t read yourself, are you?
Salvador
For the other readers,
The paper Hannah references has a section on harmonizing the two forms of CSI measures between the new version and the on in No Free Lunch. If one defines T (in No Free Lunch) such that one is effectively dealing “single archer” “single target” scenarios then there is harmony between the two forms of the equation, and no contradiction. But such a scenario, although it can be made to work for difficult problems, is unduly awkward…
But the old formulation for simple problems is easy to understand, and thus is a good starting point. And that is why I tend to emphasize it. One can then move on to the more complex form which Hannah refernces.
The paper Hannah references is a little harder form up front, but is easier for more difficult problems.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 9:17 pm
Was there something here I was supposed to be convinced by? I simply asked PvM to avoid beginning his arguments with unshared premises.
Comment by Hannah — July 22, 2006 @ 9:19 pm
Hey, Sal, if you’re arguing that Dembksi gave a formal definition why didn’t you include it in any of your posts rather than the english-language version?
Hmmmm?
Comment by Don Baccus — July 22, 2006 @ 9:29 pm
For the benefit of the readers,
The formula quoted by Hannah is a measure of CSI in bits. There is a shorthand that can somtimes be used in disucussion.
When I have an e-mail file, the e-mail itself IS the information, however I may say, “the information in the e-mail is 5000 bits”. That is shorthand for saying the e-mail has a MEASURE of information of 5000 bits, not that 5000 bits is the actual information in the file, the text in the file is the actual information….
Thus CSI being defined as the coincidence of conceptual and physical information IS the information, but the formula which Hannah quoted is the MEASURE of information. That shorthand by Dembski is common in information science circles, and thus he should not be criticized for using the short hand.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 9:40 pm
The English language version was the formal definition. One could put it in symbolic terms in terms of set theory, but it would not add anything to the definition. Further, the diagram on page 141 clearly showed how to translate the English phrases into symbolic form.
T = conceptual information
E = physical information
I mean one could say, “if E is a member of the set T, then E is CSI with respect to the space Omega of possible outcome”. One could even use more symbols, but it wouldn’t change much of anything.
Furthermore, on pages 139 he elaborates “conceptual information” and “physical information” in terms of reduction of possibilites from a space Omega.
But since you don’t have the book, why should I waste time feeding it to you or answer your questions? I’m only mentioning it here for the sake of interested readers who may be on the sidelines.
When you see I=-log2( P (T|H ) that is the measure of information, the measure of specified complexity, but sometimes we used “specified complexity” as shorthand. Perakh could not tell the difference or refused to, and his “refutations” were horrific (and not quite as entertaining as Shallit’s).
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 22, 2006 @ 10:00 pm
I have no idea what you are talking about. Your description of Mark Perakh once again totally remains unsupported.
Mark knows his sciences as does Shallit.
Although it is quite entertaining to see Sal trying to rebut the devastating arguments agains Dembski. And now we are informed that Dembski has yet again moved the goalposts with his latest definitions.
Perhaps Sal can show why the present claims based on the old definition of CSI still hold.
Btw, the definition of information is a bit esoteric since it defines information to be zero if the probability is 1 which means that if the chance/regularity hypothesis can explain the system, the probability is 1 and thus no information is ‘generated’
Hence my assertion of circular definition.
Let’s wait and see when someone will address the irrefutable fact that CSI as defined by Sal based on Dembski’s work is meaningless.
I thank Sal for providing me with all that I needed to make the argument.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 10:08 pm
No hypotheses logically follow from ID…
Be so good as to back that up.
My apologies. Cornelius Hunter, in his appearance at Cornell, came up with one hypothesis of ID: black obelisks. Unfortunately, he didn’t offer any details on where we should search for these black obelisks. Can you offer us more details on this hypothesis?
Examples of hypothetical predictions ID doesn’t make: sex ratios in insects; camelid fossils in North America; many many others that are explored in the multitude of pro-evolution biology research papers in the last century and a half.
As noted, you could easily disprove this assertion by offering just one example. If it existed.
Comment 29: Does Behe, Salvador, Hannah or any other ID proponent possess positive evidence, such as a videotape of a new species being miraculously created? Poof!
This one made me smile… it reminds me of the notoriously bad “kindergarten argument” from the other side: “I’ll believe in evolution once I see a monkey turn into a person!”
Apparently the act of smiling prevented you from actually answering the question, so I’ll take that as a no. Now that we’ve had a thread on analogy, I await a thread on “argument from ignorance”. The students in the class would benefit from understanding this analogy before the Kitzmiller transcripts and verdicts are covered in class. The argument from ignorance is essential to understanding the entire case for ID, as demonstrated by J. Cosgrove. As George Gilder of the Discovery Institute put it in a Boston Globe interview (July 27, 2005), “Intelligent design itself does not have any content.”
Comment by ivy privy — July 22, 2006 @ 10:20 pm
Was there something here I was supposed to be convinced by?
Personally, I think this quote from Judge Jones, relayed by Nick Matzke in comment 6 should have convinced you that Behe’s assertions in his response to the Kitzmiller verdict were in error:
Unlike biological systems, human artifacts do not live and reproduce over time. They are non-replicable, they do not undergo genetic recombination, and they are not driven by natural selection. (1:131-33 (Miller); 23:57-59 (Behe)). For human artifacts, we know the designer’s identity, human, and the mechanism of design, as we have experience based upon empirical evidence that humans can make such things, as well as many other attributes including the designer’s abilities, needs, and desires. (D-251 at 176; 1:131-33 (Miller); 23:63 (Behe); 5:55- 58 (Pennock)). With ID, proponents assert that they refuse to propose hypotheses on the designer’s identity, do not propose a mechanism, and the designer, he/she/it/they, has never been seen. In that vein, defense expert Professor Minnich agreed that in the case of human artifacts and objects, we know the identity and capacities of the human designer, but we do not know any of those attributes for the designer of biological life. (38:44-47 (Minnich)). In addition, Professor Behe agreed that for the design of human artifacts, we know the designer and its attributes and we have a baseline for human design that does not exist for design of biological systems. (23:61-73 (Behe)). Professor Behe’s only response to these seemingly insurmountable points of disanalogy was that the inference still works in science fiction movies. (23:73 (Behe)).
Since Brian K (#114) seems to need things spelled out as explicitly as possible, I’ll elaborate a bit more on part of this: According to biological science, evolutionary processes including natural selection can generate apparent design. Mechanical objects such as watches do not reproduce themselves biologically, and therefore cannot be the product of natural selection. Therefore the anaolgy fails in a way directly relevant to the comparison. Brian K, if you need even more detail on that, be sure to let us know.
Comment by ivy privy — July 22, 2006 @ 10:27 pm
Unraveling Complex Specified Information
I will start with the definition provided to us so generously by Salvador Cordova
When you see I=-log2( P (T|H ) that is the measure of information, the measure of specified complexity, but sometimes we used “specified complexity” as shorthand.
In this definition the relevant component is P(T|H). This is the likelihood of T given the hypothesis of H. Since the log of 1 is zero, any time the likelihood is one, which would happen if H is the correct hypothesis, CSI would be reduced to zero.
Possible Conclusions
1. CSI is evidence that natural processes cannot explain T thus T was designed. But this is circular since CSI is defined to disappear when natural processes can explain T.
2. In addition, the failure of one or more hypotheses T does not provide any reason to believe that ID is a relevant hypothesis.
3. Is ID explains T then the likelihood will simlarly be reduced to 1 and the information to zero. Under the processes of intelligence, CSI can only be different to zero if one take the relevant probability to be that of a process which does not explain T.
Hannah pointed out that a new definition of CSI was proposed by Dembski and argues that this definition is the relevant one.
Conclusions
1. Any arguments that relied on CSI should be rejected until ID has shown that the new approach does not affect the conclusion.
2. The new definition multiplies the probability by three additional factors: the specificational resources, and M and N. From their definition it is clear that all three have to be 1 or larger, or in other words, if they are all 1, the original definition is retrieved and the same arguments apply. If the factors are larger than 1 then we realize that natural processes can only generate negative complex specified information.
Seems that Dembski has abandoned similarities with ‘information’ in order to better deal with the concept of specification. But at a significant cost of making CSI even more likely to be uncomputable.
Either definition would define natural processes to be unable to generate CSI, and thus CSI cannot be seen as an independent aspect of the design inference. It’s basically the same argument from ignorance. We do not know how to explain T, causing P(T|H) to be small and thus CSI to be large. But all this shows is that we cannot explain something (yet) and gives us no help as to how to explain this in the future: either via ‘intelligent design’ or via a yet to be discovered mechanism. Since ID insists on no false positives, it has to avoid jumping to false conclusions and thus it cannot presume designed instead of the better explanation of ‘we don’t know’ which is really what CSI indicates.
I am looking forward to comments and critiques of my findings.
As always, In Christ.
Comment by PvM — July 22, 2006 @ 11:24 pm
This one made me smile… it reminds me of the notoriously bad “kindergarten argument” from the other side: “I’ll believe in evolution once I see a monkey turn into a person!”
I invite more exposition from Hannah on how a request for one - just one - piece of positive evidence for ID is comparable to Creationist demands for impossible amounts of evidence or short-term recurrences of long-term historical contingencies from evolutionists. I invite her to do this in a thread she started on analogies.
Comment by ivy privy — July 22, 2006 @ 11:29 pm
Leonid Meyerguz:
I’ve read through about half of Shallit and Elsberry’s paper. And I’ve read the Appendix. There are serious errors in the appendix. Equation (1) is derived in some strange way. We find #T and #OMEGA in (1), and then are quickly told about #S and S, which don’t appear in equation. “n” appears in (1), and it’s not clear at all whence it comes.
As well, in the first paragraph of the appendix, something called max(0,[y]-n) appears kind of out of nowhere. I get the impression something has been left out.
I don’t want to go any farther in my criticism until I get some clarification about (at least) those two problems. Anybody know anything about either one of these two problemas?
But, certainly, no matter what any corrections might point out, one thing is completely obvious: neither Shallit nor Elsberry understand what CSI is. They use Dembski’s definition of “information” (just, plain-old, information; nothing fancy) and call it CSI. How is it possible to make such a gross error in understanding? Anyone have an answer to that one?
Comment by Lino D\'Ischia — July 22, 2006 @ 11:45 pm
But, certainly, no matter what any corrections might point out, one thing is completely obvious: neither Shallit nor Elsberry understand what CSI is. They use Dembski’s definition of “information” (just, plain-old, information; nothing fancy) and call it CSI. How is it possible to make such a gross error in understanding? Anyone have an answer to that one?
They don’t…
We criticize Dembski’s concept of “information” and “specification” p. 2
pages 21-25 discuss specification in its full detail
Could you explain what led you to this conclusion? Are we discussing the same paper?
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 12:05 am
Offtopic Hannah:
I am having similar “unresponsive script” issues occasionally. They seem to only be occurring when I’m using Firefox with XP Home Edition, and the thread gets large enough (about 150 messages). Hope this information is useful.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 23, 2006 @ 12:41 am
e-mail Shallit. If you’re lucky, you might even be graced with the opportunity to study under him.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 23, 2006 @ 12:53 am
That is leading question (like, “have you stopped beating your dog”). We are not asking impossible amounts of evidence. I’m asking for EBers to resolve the mathematical contradictions in their theory. A theory claiming to be empirical and theoretical needs to be free of serious internal contradiction. However, I don’t see it. Case in point, I invited discussion of conserved sequences from basic equations of population genetics. Any one game? The numbers don’t add up guys. The theory is put together with self-destruct mechanisms, mathematically speaking.
If we have 4 billion nucleotides base pairs, and “conserved” regions of about 1.2 billion base pais, and each individual has 175 mutations per generation, that means oh, about 58 mutations in the “conserved” regions. Let me give then a highly over generous scenario, in a population of 1,000,000, how many people will have no mutation in the “conserved” region? Practically NONE.
So we apply what is known as purifying selection. Assuming no more mutations enter (which is unrealistic), purifying selection will take time to weed out all the bad. However, if new mutations keep pouring in, this is bad news! I hear estimates of mothers having to bear about 10 kids just to combat 1 mutation per generation in a purifying selection scenario. Nachman estimates purifying selection can clean out 3 mutation per generatin assuming maybe 40 offspring per human female! But the number 3 still falls far short of 58.
Thus, “conserved regions” are not justified by the numbers.
See Estimate of the Mutation Rate per Nucleotide in Humans
Translation of the part I bolded :
Cornell geneticist John Sanford considers Nachman’s study too optimistic in his book, Genetic Entropy.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 12:55 am
Sal writes:
Patience is a virtue, Sal - I’m not glued to the Internet 24 hours a day, you know. And, no I do not own any of Dembski’s books. I have however, read every one of his relevant technical papers, and many of his posts on ISCID and on UD. In particular, I read Dembski’s latest paper on specification, and based on that, I conclude that Shallit’s criticism is very much spot-on. Now, unless there is some hidden wisdom in Demski’s books that is absent from his technical works, I see no reason to shell out good money for them; your continual inability to show how Shallit misrepresents Dembski certainly doesn’t encourage me to do so. Neither does Dembski himself, as at the end of his specification paper, he notes that the newest work does not represent a significant departure from either TDI or NFL. In short, it is my impression that every significant idea of Dembski’s has been discussed in detail on the web by himself, his supporters, and his opponents, so I see no reason to spend any more time on his books, or to put any of my money into his pocket.
PS: I don’t own “Origin of Species” either, I’m ashamed to say. I suppose that precludes me from arguing for evolution as well. I hereby recuse myself from the debate. :-)
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 23, 2006 @ 1:20 am
Sal remarks Case in point, I invited discussion of conserved sequences from basic equations of population genetics. Any one game? The numbers don’t add up guys. The theory is put together with self-destruct mechanisms, mathematically speaking.
None is preventing you from providing your calculations. But you should be aware that your application of Haldane’s Dilemma is only as good as its assumptions.
I have referenced in another thread, how Haldane’s dilemma can be resolved.
More flawed logic
If we have 4 billion nucleotides base pairs, and “conserved” regions of about 1.2 billion base pais, and each individual has 175 mutations per generation, that means oh, about 58 mutations in the “conserved” regions. Let me give then a highly over generous scenario, in a population of 1,000,000, how many people will have no mutation in the “conserved” region? Practically NONE.
The nature of conserved regions is that mutations are strongly selected against, or in other words, the assumption by Salvador seems unsupportable.
I applaud Sal for attempting to support his claims but it should be self evident by now that conserved regions are not contradicted by his ‘arguments’.
Sal did discover something namely the possibility of detrimental mutations accumulating. But it seems to me that he is comparing once again apples and oranges.
Perhaps I could invite Sal to present his calculations to us in a straightforward manner? Without further detail, his arguments are at best tentative and lacking in specificity and at worst a paradox.
To state however that evolutionary theory cannot explain conserved regions seems fully lacking in evidence.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 1:31 am
Hannah wrote:
What are the known causes of CSI besides humans? Is trying to claim there’s no theory of evolution supported by evidence that natural process produce CSI supposed to help make that an inductive argument?Comment by alienward — July 23, 2006 @ 2:02 am
Lino:
What I know about these problems is that they don’t exist, and your accusation of “serious errors” should be withdrawn.
1) S is a placeholder in the definition of “#”.
2) n is introduced in the paragraph preceding Eq. 1. The event space consists of all strings of length n.
3) max(0,|y|-n) is the definition of SAI(y), where n is the Kolmogorov complexity of string y.
Lino:
Answer: You don’t know what you’re talking about. E&S are quite straightforward; a little more care in your reading will help you avoid making ridiculous accusations based on your own misunderstanding.
Comment by secondclass — July 23, 2006 @ 2:13 am
Some more recent data
Here we compared the contributions of genetic drift, mutation and selection on the distribution of human polymorphisms. Our results confirm the importance of the coalescent history, genetic drift, to the structure of human haplotypes (12). However, at least in protein coding regions, negative selection also has a profound effect on the density of polymorphisms. We found that selection lowers genetic variability by eliminating deleterious variants and the magnitude of this effect is relatively strong in comparison to genetic drift. The correlation of the non-synonymous sequence divergence to the density of damaging SNPs shows that the accumulation of deleterious SNPs also has a considerable effect on the pattern in human polymorphism such that many SNPs in the human genome appear to be substantially deleterious. While previous analyses detected high levels of deleterious SNPs in the human population (4,16,29–34), here we show that selection is strong enough to prevent their fixation.
Impact of selection, mutation rate and genetic drift on human genetic variation, Human Molecular Genetics, 2003, Vol. 12, No. 24 3325-3330
Also note that 175 is the estimate of neutral mutations. From the same study Sal quoted:
Our estimate of the neutral mutation rate is 175 mutations per genome per generation
this is important since neutral mutations mean conserved mutations as they code for the same amino-acid. Based on these data, the same authors conclude an average of three detrimental mutations per genome per generation.
More on positive selection
Trends Genet. 2006 Jul 18; [Epub ahead of print] Mutation, selection and the future of human evolution.
Several recent analyses provide growing evidence of the influence of positive selection acting in the ancestors of modern humans. Additionally, the best way to explain current fluctuations in neutral variation across the genome is by including negative selection against a high rate of deleterious mutants. We suggest that explaining these predicted high deleterious mutation rates in humans could require the inclusion of additional factors, such as inbreeding and prezygotic selection, in addition to rank-order selection and fitness interactions among mutations. We also suggest that some forms of selection, rather than being relaxed in modern humans, are probably still acting and might intensify in the near future, and make some predictions about the next several millennia of human evolution.
Pubmed list many interesting articles relevant to this discussion
Genetics. 2006 Jun;173(2):891-900. Epub 2006 Mar 17.
The distribution of fitness effects of new deleterious amino Acid mutations in humans.
Conclusions:
The distribution of fitness effects is central to the understanding of many problems in genetics and evolution. Here we have attempted to provide a detailed description of this distribution, by fitting a population genetic model to extensively and deeply sampled single-nucleotide polymorphism data in humans. Although there are limitations to this method, particularly for inferring the distribution of fitness effects of strongly selected mutations, we estimate that the vast majority of amino-acid-changing mutations in humans have mild effects of between 1/1000 and 1/10. The estimated mean strength of selection against nonsynonymous mutations is a few percent, which suggests that declines in fitness due to modern medicine in humans are unlikely to be a problem. However, the distribution does suggest that it will be difficult to locate the majority of mutations involved in genetic disease unless the disease is completely unassociated with fitness or some of the mutations have been subject to positive selection.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 2:15 am
Sure Sal, I’ll discuss pop-gen equations with you. On one condition: you will also have to defend the applicability of the underlying theoretical models to evolution in the real world.
Incidentally, the problem you cite, that of genetic loads, has nothing with selection’s ability to maintain specific conserved sequences. Rather, the genetic load problem asks whether selection can maintain the level of fitness of population over the course of evolutionary history. Population geneticists argue about whether or not it is a real problem, and what the solutions might be. For a brief but insightful treatment, I’d recommend Gillespie’s “Population Genetics”, published by John Hopkins University Press. (Section 3.5 discusses genetic loads)
As for the high level of sequence similarity between all modern humans (incidentally, our genome size is 3 billion bp, not 4), it is explained by - surprise! - our very recent common ancestry, and not by the ridiculous idea that all 3 billion nucleotides are constantly being maintained by selection. In fact, by examing the DNA that is likely not undergoing any selection and free from combination, we can determine how long ago the most recent ancestors of all modern humans lived (60,000-90,000 years for Y-chromosomal adam, 150,000 years for Mitochondrial Eve). This misunderstanding of basic evolutionary theory on your part is, quite frankly, mind-boggling. If this is the population genetics you learned from Sanford, I shudder to think about what else is in that book.
It is quite telling that you are so quick to dismiss epistatis as a “kludge”, while taking the equally theoretical construct of genetic loads at face value. However, epistasic effects are expected to occur, particularly among sexually reproducing organisms. For a good theoretical treatment of epistasis, including the powerful effects it may have on genetic loads, check out this paper (Rice, Genetica 102/103: 71–81, 1998).
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 23, 2006 @ 2:30 am
Is trying to claim there’s no theory of evolution supported by evidence that natural process produce CSI supposed to help make that an inductive argument?
It is trivial to show that natural selection and variation can increase the (Shannon) information in the genome. As such the claim that natural processes cannot generate CSI, even though explicitly defined as impossible can be reconciled with the fact that P(T|H) seldomly involves the actual hypothesis H but more often a uniformly distributed hypothesis of random chance. But if that is how CSI is calculated then in fact the argument is that pure chance cannot generate CSI. So now we have two sets of mechanisms, one involving evolutionary mechanisms and the other one involving designed mechanisms. And yet no attempts are given to explain what mechanisms created CSI in the genome and it is trivial to show that at least natural selection can generate CSI. Using Occam’s razor and the lack of positive hypotheses of design, the conclusion should be that design has to be rejected. At least if Dembski’s suggestions are to be followed.
I am just following where Dembski’s logic leads us and the story time after time ends in a bad spot for ID.
In this case I presume that CSI is calculated based on the uniformly distributed chance hypothesis. Thus when CSI is ‘inferred’ or ‘calculated’ we now have to resolve: designed by natural processes or designed by intelligence. Lacking any supporting evidence of the latter, and given the presence of plausible processes of the former which can increase information in the genome, the question becomes: Why should the design inference be seen as relevant to ID?
Using Dembski’s definition of specification, we can safely assume that anything in biology with a function is specified
Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. In virtue of their function these systems embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified … (page 148)
So the argument now becomes purely a probability argument where more than often the hypothesis tested is one of pure chance. For instance in his Fibonacci example in his latest specification paper, Dembski calculates P(T|H) relative to the random chance hypothesis of H. Is this the only relevant hypothesis? If so, why is it that Dembski’s examples seldomly seem to address real hypotheses H. For instance in case of the flagellum, has Dembski shown that P(T|H) is small for the pathways provided? How is one even to calculate such probabilities? And if such calculations are unfeasible, how can one reach the conclusion that the flagellum contains CSI?
What about Fibonacci series found in nature? Do they contain CSI? Is it no longer true that algorithms cannot produce CSI merely that they displace it? Or is the displacement still valid with all its additional problems?
There are so many problems with CSI and I have just addressed the more obvious ones such as the per definition rejection of chance/regularity processes being able to generate CSI.
I also noticed how Dembski’s latest paper on specifications seems to be related to discussion by Rex Kerr and Erik and Gedanken on ISCID. Would be interesting to what extent their contributions led Dembski to revise his arguments?
Logic does not hold up here… So is it me or is it …. Memorex :-)
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 2:30 am
Lino:
I didn’t know that, and I thank you for the information. My personal common sense tells me that, given millions of years and a large enough population, a breeder could achieve the very broad goal of producing something undoglike. But my opinion is very uninformed since I know nothing of dog breeding.
Lino:
Nope. Can you quote a passage that shows that Darwin’s belief in natural evolution hinged on an argument from analogy?
Lino:
Before you explain to us why self-replication bespeaks design, could you at least tell us whether the dissimilarities mentioned in comment #6 meet Behe’s criteria, as quoted in the original post?
Comment by secondclass — July 23, 2006 @ 2:46 am
Lino wrote:
Sorry, Lino, but there are no errors in the portions you cite. Equation (1) simply compute information according to Dembski’s definition for the model Shallit and Elseberry (S&E) describe. (It is crucial to understand the preceding paragraph in order to understand this equation, so it might be worth re-reading it.) Specifically, equation (1) gives the probability of picking an element of T by sampling uniformly at random from Omega. Omega consists of all possible bit strings of length n: there are 2^n such strings. Thus the right-hand-side of equation 1 is easily derived from the left hand side (subsititute 2^n for #Omega, and get rid of the logarithm in the denominator).
“#S” is used simply to convey notation - for any set S, #S is the cardinality (number of elements) in S. Thus, #T and #Omega are the numbers of elements in T and Omega, respectively (the latter being 2^n).
Again, I would suggest a careful re-reading of the paragraph: all the variables are defined before the expression appears. y is the bit string under consideration, |y| is its length. n=C(y) is, roughly, the length of the shortest program that could be used to generate y (a quantity known as Kolmogorov complexity). The expression max(0,|y|-n) is roughly measure of the size smallest algorithm and its input that could be used to generate y compared to the length of y itself. In essence, the smaller this quantity, the more “random” the string y.in some strange way. We find #T and #OMEGA in (1), and then are quickly told about #S and S, which don’t appear in equation. “n” appears in (1), and it’s not clear at all whence it comes.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 23, 2006 @ 3:02 am
Well, I evidently didn’t write a very clear post on analogies then, as Nick’s quote is almost identical to the claim (by Allen) that I was critiquing. Which is why I didn’t find it anymore convincing than I found his original argument.
It appears you are defining “apparent design” in a different way then we are. The only thing we’re qualifiying as design is specified complexity, and natural selection doesn’t seem quite capable of producing that. S.C. is defined, after all, relative to Darwinian mechanisms in those cases where they are relevant.
Moreover, humans are capable of creating machines that can reproduce, so that isn’t a relevant disanalogy either. Perhaps some day we’ll “create life” in a test tube. Is there any reason inherent in your view of disanalogies for why we couldn’t?
Comment by Hannah — July 23, 2006 @ 8:41 am
Salvador:
Sal, everyone reading this thread knows by now that this claim is absurd, so I don’t see the point in repeating it. Not even Hannah thinks that Figure 3.2 of NFL is “the actual definition” (see comment 144, emphasis hers).
Comment by secondclass — July 23, 2006 @ 9:28 am
PvM–
This is interesting. Behe is criticized for not doing a major revision of his book a la Darwin. Dembski does make major revisions, and that is called goalpost moving.
Moreover, the “now we are informed” rings hollow; the paper is almost a year old, and is the same one secondclass referred to– although if he used that definition he didn’t explain it.
We aren’t interested in your misinterpretation of Salvador’s interperetation of Dembski’s work. Really. This is a 2006 class, and we believe, when possible, in going to the relevant sources. In this case that is this paper. Why don’t you want to address it? It isn’t all that hard to figure out; right now, after an evening of discussion, everyone in my class understands and could explain it to you. And we’re not all math/science majors. Moreover, I’ve given the definition, directly from the paper, which we are using; if you want to refute it you’ll have to refute that.
At any rate….
No, P(T|H)=1 is not a necessary consequence of H being the correct hypothesis. Where do you get that from?
No, M and N are the specificational and replicational resources. φs(T) is defined as the cardinality of {U ∈ patterns(Ω) | ϕ’s(U) ≤ ϕ′s(T)} where patterns(Ω) is the collection of all patterns that identify events in Ω.
Again that’s nonsense; probably stemming from problems with your “likelihood 1″ scenario. It is true that, theoretically, if Dembski’s claims in Design Inference hold, chance and necessity are unable to generate CSI. Else it wouldn’t be very relevant. But you haven’t demonstrated any basis for your claim of a tautology.Comment by Hannah — July 23, 2006 @ 9:43 am
Hannah:
Your argument is with Sal. He’s the one who insists on a definition from NFL.Hannah:
No, Pim is correct. M times N is the replicational resources. φs(T) is the specificational resources.
Comment by secondclass — July 23, 2006 @ 10:21 am
My mistake.
No, Sal is using a conceptual definition which as far as I can tell is still relevant– but I prefer the more concrete way the measure of S.C. is given in the recent paper. I’m not entirely sure what PvM is using, but it seems like a relic of old debates from before we were around, i.e., a misinterpretation of the superseded definition.
Comment by Hannah — July 23, 2006 @ 10:27 am
Hannah:
Technically, it isn’t. Sal’s definition requires that the specification reside in the mind of an intelligent agent (”conceptual information”), but the current definition does not.Comment by secondclass — July 23, 2006 @ 10:35 am
Hannah:
Pim is probably thinking of deterministic or near-deterministic processes, like Dawkins’ WEASEL program. If the correct H is a stochastic process, then P(T|H) can be much less than one. But in that case, the specification has no relevance since it just happened to occur by chance.
If chance and necessity can’t generate CSI, then there is no such thing as CSI. All events are characterized by probability, even those with a probability of zero. It’s a mathematical fact that the complement of necessity and chance is an empty set.
Comment by secondclass — July 23, 2006 @ 12:01 pm
ANOTHER MISREPRESENTATION of what I said and what Dembski said by yet another person who hasn’t read relevant sections of Dembski’s literature. Secondclass is effectively giving book reviews for something he hasn’t read.
Conceptual information (T) isn’t defined that way, and YOU WOULD HAVE LESS CHANCE OF MISREPRESENTING SOMETHING IF YOU KNEW WHAT IT SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND THAT MEANS HAVING ACCESS TO THE MATERIAL BEFORE YOU CRITICIZE IT! SHEESH! You guys are writing book reviews of material you haven’t even read. Where did you get that definition of conceptual information secondclass, did you get it from second hand distortions, like from Perakh?
This sort of discussion is a waste of time.
Thus discussions of the more serious issue of what the equations signify is avoided. Discussions of mathematical contradictions in Darwinian theory are avoided which show that even as analogy, the Darwinian paradigm is mathematically incoherent by the very mechanisms it claims as justification. Serious technical issues are obfuscated into oblivion…..
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
Hannah ‘argues’: I’m not entirely sure what PvM is using, but it seems like a relic of old debates from before we were around, i.e., a misinterpretation of the superseded definition.
I have presented my arguments based on the new and revised defintion as well as the old definition. I assume that Hannah agrees that conclusions based on the old definition have to be rejected until the new definition can be applied?
Hannah: No, P(T|H)=1 is not a necessary consequence of H being the correct hypothesis. Where do you get that from?
The likilihood of T given T is 1. In other words, the likelihood that T arises given the exact pathways how T arises is obviously 1.
Hannah: Again that’s nonsense; probably stemming from problems with your “likelihood 1″ scenario. It is true that, theoretically, if Dembski’s claims in Design Inference hold, chance and necessity are unable to generate CSI. Else it wouldn’t be very relevant. But you haven’t demonstrated any basis for your claim of a tautology.
It’s by definition P(T|H) is 1 or close to 1 when H is the actual process. In order for this process to generate CSI it’s likelihood has to be extremely small, eliminating the chance that the process can explain T. In other words, the definition of the probabilities P(T|H) requires the likelilood of the hypothesis to be extremely small (making the hypothesis a poor candidate) in order for H to generate CSI or the hypothesis is a matching candidate and the likelihood is high and thus CSI is negative.
In other words, the existence of CSI is equivalent to present chance/regularity hypotheses being unable to explain T. CSI is no independent indicator but tightly coupled. CSI is low or negative when we have hypotheses that are likely candidates and CSI is high when we have only ignorance.
Perhaps Hannah can explain to us what the meaning of P(T|H) is?
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 1:42 pm
Indeed: T = conceptual information
So do I. And I hope you’ll forgive me for having to deal with Shallit’s 2003 paper which claims to represent Dembski’s earlier work. I wish to show that Shallit argued through equivocation and straw man. I am in no way contending with your usage of the new material, even though my critics are doing what they can to make it appear that way.
Regarding the updated paper, I ascent to the revised version.
However, I should point out Shallit in 2003 did not have the 2006 version, and thus I am pointing out he did not do justice to the literature as it stood then in 2003. This fact negates secondclass’s strawman:
The issue is whether Shallit properly represented in 2003 something Dembski wrote earlier, not what he wrote today. And as I’ll point out there is harmonization between the versions.
Furthermore, the revision is not a repudiation. For example in No Free Lunch
I = -log2 (P(T_old_version|H) )
in the new version in the paper Hannah cited:
I =
-log2 [M • N • φs(T_new_version) • P(T_new_version|H)]
showing the equivalence of the two sides
-log2 (P(T_old_version|H) ) =
-log2 [M • N • φs(T_new_version) • P(T_new_version|H)]
The harmonization of the two forms (and we all know different equations can represent the same thing), comes through realizing the T in No Free Lunch would be phrased differently than T in the new paper, but “I” would still be the same. The new paper allows us to describe T less awkwardly than in No Free Lunch. As you know, given your math background, the same issue can be represented isomorphically with different symbols, but some symbolic forms are more amenable to comprehension. That is all that is at play here. Bill gave a section in the paper on harmonization of his revisions to his previous works.
Feel free to avoid dealing with their misrepresentations of what I say. Let them answer YOUR questions.
Let’s look at this in a positive light, give PvM your undivided attention and allow him to answer your questions and argue his case persuasively as possible. Let’s give PvM a fair hearing (and you and your peers are the judge in the hearing) by having him respond to your queries. Don’t feel obligated to defend me or any IDer. The participants of the weblog are here to defend our case before the judges (you and your peers).
One can easily get distracted by the swarming tactics which are being employed. They can do exactly as secondclass has done: introduce misrepresentation after misrepresentation, and energy wasted from fruitful discussion just dealing with the misrepresentations.
You did an excellent job by the way here:
If I can pause a bit here and point out what Bill is doing. One can see that stochastic (random processes) are insufficient to create CSI. One can then mathematically demonstrate then that if Darwinian evolution is fundamentally a stochastic process, it is self-contradicted mathematically.
Darwinian evolution has only avoided scrutiny by arguing “natural selection” is not itself rooted in a chance mechanism. However, when one realizes “natural selection” is properly model by random variables as well, one realizes Darwinian evolution is self-contradictory mathematically, much like arguing the square root of 2 is rational (a ratio of two integers).
It is a separate issue if CSI implies intelligence. CSI is merely a DEFINITION, it is not a proof. Dembski may call it a design, but that is merely a definition of design, not intelligent design.
Thus by definition, certain objects are designed, whether it is intelligently designed is a separate issue, which, IDers claim is inferred through analogy.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 1:52 pm
Hannah wrote:
From New Scientist: I just want to make sure I understand the claims of people who claim natural processes can’t produce things with S.C., which includes every genome on the planet and includes things like polio, Ebola, and that 1918 flu strain. Even though Internet geeks can synthesize these things now, it took an “intelligent agency” to create them in the first place – natural process couldn’t have created them, right?Comment by alienward — July 23, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
Hannah,
For you consideration:
I point that out so that Dembski’s critics can be pre-empted from resorting to equivocations of what Dembski formally means by design.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
Hannah: We aren’t interested in your misinterpretation of Salvador’s interperetation of Dembski’s work.
Misinterpretation Hannah? Harsh words that are at odds with the facts.
Hannah: Why don’t you want to address it? It isn’t all that hard to figure out; right now, after an evening of discussion, everyone in my class understands and could explain it to you.
So many errors Hannah: First I do want to address it and you are right, the paper is not that hard to understand. So let’s not take the route of the ad hominem and instead focus on the fact that I 1) did address the paper’s claims and 2) that you have no reason to believe that I somehow cannot understand or comprehend the paper.
I am sure that if everyone in your class understands the paper then three conclusions seem inevitable
1. Dembski changed his definition significantly enough that old design inference claims need to be re-evaluated. In other words, the flagellum cannot be claimed to show evidence of design based on the old CSI definition until the new definition is applied.
2. The new definition is even harder to apply as it has become physically untractable, what are M and N and what is phi for all but the most trivial examples?
3. Since P(T|H) is high if H matches the actual pathway of regularity and chance. For instance the likelihood of a fibonacci series given a natural fibonacci algorithm (as we observe in nature btw) is 1. This means that natural processes cannot generate CSI by definition.
Hannah still makes the following erroneous assertion since it is either based on circular reasoning or contrary to facts
It appears you are defining “apparent design” in a different way then we are. The only thing we’re qualifiying as design is specified complexity, and natural selection doesn’t seem quite capable of producing that.
Specified complexity either is low for natural processes because they contain regularity and chance processes which make the likelihood of it explaining a particular system high and thus the complexity is by definition low, or we accept that such processes can indeed in principle generate CSI and then we look at the actual information theoretical work by Schneider or Adami who have shown how CSI can arise naturally.
Let me present Hannah with the following puzzle to show what I mean.
The traveling salesman problem is a well known problem in mathematics. Given a set of cities and distances, what is the optimal way to visit all these cities once?
We now have the algorithm room (originally proposed by Wesley Elsberry). Inside the algorithm room we have two possibilities
1. A human works through the problem by hand and solves the problem,
2. An algorithm works through the problem and solves the problem
Since the human will likely take more time, the answer is returned in a sufficiently time span that the timing cannot be used as additional information.
You are given the answer, which is specified and complex and are tasked to determine:
1. Was it the algorithm?
2. Was it the human?
Elsberry proposed the algorithm room after Dembski suggested the existence of apparant and actual CSI (not dissimilar from apparant and actual design really…)
A recent posting of Dembski’s introduced qualifiers to CSI, so that we now have “apparent CSI” and “actual CSI”. Dembski categorizes as “apparent CSI” those solutions which meet the formerly given criteria of CSI, but which are produced via evolutionary computation. This is contrasted with “actual CSI”, in which a solution meets the CSI criteria and which an intelligent agent produces.
Oh yes, the solution has to be complex and specified. Given Dembski’s original or updated definitions how does one resolve this issue?
Or is it true that the explanatory filter cannot detect apparant versus actual CSI? Is that why Dembski has attempted such ill-fated concepts as the displacement ‘theorem’, the ‘law’ of ‘conservation’ of complex specified information or more recently ’searching large spaces?’
Oh yes another interesting quote from Dembski
Dembski’s analysis fails to be even-handed. Dembski explores how evolutionary computation approaches a solution, but does not show that an intelligent agent can approach any particular problem in a supposedly different manner and escape the problems that Dembski asserts for EC. Specifically, if the probability of producing a solution becomes the relevant CSI metric, the probability of an intelligent agent achieving a solution looks to be just as much a “probability amplifier” as an algorithm.
[Quote]
What this means is that even though with respect to the uniform probability on the phase space the target has exceedingly small probability, the probability for the evolutionary algorithm E to get into the target in m steps is no longer small. And since complexity and improbability are for the purposes of specified complexity parallel notions, this means that even though the target is complex and specified with respect to the uniform probability on the phase space, it remains specified but is no longer complex with respect to the probability induced by evolutionary algorithm E.
[End Quote - WA Dembski, “Specified Complexity”, MetaViews 152]
Thus we see such fancy footwork as
[Quote]
Does this mean that the evolutionary algorithm has in fact generated complex specified information, but that in referring to a loss of complexity with respect to E I’m simply engaging in some fancy redefinitions to avoid this conclusion? I don’t think so. Remember that we are interested in the **generation** of specified complexity and not in its reshuffling.
[End Quote - WA Dembski, “Specified Complexity”, MetaViews 152]
Does anyone know if Dembski even has dared to address Wesley’s Algorithm Room problem?
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 2:06 pm
Sal claims that Dembski’s claims are somehow relevant or address the issue of defining ID as the residue of elimination of chance and regularity
Defining design as the negation of regularity and chance avoids prejudicing the causal storries we associate with design inferences
The principal advantage of characterizing design as the complement of regularity and chance is that it avoids committing itself to a doctrine of intelligent agency
Remember that the Explanatory Filter comes at a cost as well
1. The specification becomes subjective
2. Inferring design does not infer agency which is an inductive step which cannot even exclude natural selection as the agent.
3. It presumes that intelligent design as defined by Dembski matches what we more commonly understand as intelligent design. Since I argue that intelligent design as we know it can be understood in terms of regularity and chance processes, that the design set defined by Dembski is either empty or contains one or more supernatural entities.
It always helps to take a sceptical stance towards any claims of ‘fact’ and ask yourself the simple question “is this claim correct”? What evidence is provided to support these claims? What logical conclusions follow from the claim?
Sal’s suggestion, which is this time called a pre-emption, is unwarranted. not only is there little evidence of equivocation on the part of ID critics, but to suggest that even if Sal is right and such equivocation may have existed in the past, that there is no reason to suggest that such behavior would repeat itself on these boards.
Sal makes a big concession though: Thus by definition, certain objects are designed, whether it is intelligently designed is a separate issue, which, IDers claim is inferred through analogy.
In other words, apparant and actual design has not been resolved by the explanatory filter and in fact, the explanatory filter seems fully irrelevant. All that is needed is analogy. And back we are to Paley’s days…
Sal: Darwinian evolution has only avoided scrutiny by arguing “natural selection” is not itself rooted in a chance mechanism. However, when one realizes “natural selection” is properly model by random variables as well, one realizes Darwinian evolution is self-contradictory mathematically, much like arguing the square root of 2 is rational (a ratio of two integers).
Sal is still making the claim of evolution being self contradictory. Too bad that despite many attempts to have him support this claim and contrary to the evidence provided, Sal is still making this vacuous (empty) claim.
I hope that we can at least limit our discussion to claims of fact or support them to our best abilities, as I have done and am willing to do when questioned.
Science is based on the exact concept of formulating claims and showing how they withstand scrutiny. A failure of such claims to represent the factual reality quickly reduces said claims to irrelevancy. And science does not accept the fallacy of appeal to repetition as a way to increase the relevancy of a claim.
I do thank Sal however for the major concession that design cannot distinguish between apparant and actual design, rendering the explanatory filter fully useless and indicating that the real argument is one of analogy (one of the weakest arguments, especially when provided with natural pathways to explain the system). In other words, Sal has mostly rendered the whole concept of ID vacuous and has returned to the days of Paley and we all remember how well his arguments fared.
Only by defining natural selection as fundamentally stochastic, whatever that may mean, can Sal proclaim his victory over a strawman. Despite the simple fact that actual information theoretical approaches show that such processes invariably and inevitably generate complex information. And we all remember that in biology specification follows trivially from function.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 2:20 pm
Now to some ‘new math’ from Sal
Furthermore, the revision is not a repudiation. For example in No Free Lunch
I = -log2 (P(T_old_version|H) )
in the new version in the paper Hannah cited:
I =
-log2 [M • N • φs(T_new_version) • P(T_new_version|H)]
showing the equivalence of the two sides
-log2 (P(T_old_version|H) ) =
-log2 [M • N • φs(T_new_version) • P(T_new_version|H)]
Where is the trick that proves that 1 equals -1? Simple.
the two forms of I are not equivalent…
In the old definition I ranges from 0 to infinity, in the new definition I ranges from -large number to infinity.
Ergo, I does not equal I and the rest is just dressing.
Garbage in, garbage out… In the paper itself Dembski points out these differences…. See Hannah, I did read the paper :-)
Does Hannah agree with Sal’s math?
Especially Sal’s ‘conclusion’
The harmonization of the two forms (and we all know different equations can represent the same thing), comes through realizing the T in No Free Lunch would be phrased differently than T in the new paper, but “I” would still be the same.
So now T is somehow different? But T is the actual event or system of interest. And as I have shown the I’s are not the same…
Or am I missing something obvious
One final difference that should be pointed out regarding my past work on specification is the
difference between specified complexity then and now. In the past, specified complexity, as I characterized it, was a property describing a relation between a pattern and an event delineated by that pattern. Accordingly, specified complexity either obtained or did not obtain as a certain relation between a pattern and an event. In my present treatment, specified complexity still captures this relation, but it is now not merely a property but an actual number calculated by a precise formula (i.e., χ = –log2[ 12010 ·φS(T)·P(T|H)]). This number can be negative, zero, or positive. When the number is greater than 1, it indicates that we are dealing with a specification.
In the old definition I was however either a ‘property’ or a number between 0 and infinity… How this translates or transforms into a negative number must be explainable via some new math?
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
Someone just lost credebility. :=)
The proper term for this style of “defense” is a Chewbacca Defense.
Quite useful for shutting down discussion into a stalemate, as stalemates are preferable to conceding defeat.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
Notice Sal has done nothing to support my claim while I have supported my claim with actual analysis and references to ID relevant ‘research’.
If that is Sal’s definition of ‘losing credebility (sic)’ then by all means, I accept this with honor and pride.
Suggestion: Sal could have shown how my arguments were wrong. A good example is how I analyzed and show his claims about I being equivalent to be erroneous.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 3:33 pm
PvM says:
I don’t know if he has specifically addressed this scenario, but “dared” to address the idea inherent in it, he has done numerous times. If you think this isn’t something Dembski has considered, then you have either read little of him, or misunderstand that which you read, or maybe I have.
Maybe you can explain why you think this is such a challenge to Dembski.
Meanwhile, let me address the apparent vs actual CSI. Taking the Dawkins WEASEL program, Dembski argued that the phrase was a pretty certain output, hence the probability approached 1, hence it was not “complex”, hence not CSI. And while that may be a useful way at looking at the issue, it seems there is an easier way.
The WEASEL phrase only appears quicker that random chance would dicatate because the phrase was pre-loaded into the program by an intelligent agent(or entered by a user at run-time in some versions). That isn’t the only method of an intelligent agent “gaming” the system, but it is one. So, what is “apparent” is the ability of a dumb algorithm to produce that CSI (putting aside the fact that the phrase’s odds don’t exceed the UPB).
Also,
That’s easy enough to do:
And where is the discussion of function? Looks like it got left on the cutting room floor. It may be OK to skip the concept of specification, as a trivial duplication of function, but unless you can also argue that function itself is trivial, we are left with function and complexity. Right?
Comment by Roger Rabbitt — July 23, 2006 @ 3:52 pm
Roger asks some good questions:
I asked:
PvM: Let’s for the moment skip ’specification’ as this is trivial in biology. So we are left with complexity.
Roger ask: And where is the discussion of function? Looks like it got left on the cutting room floor. It may be OK to skip the concept of specification, as a trivial duplication of function, but unless you can also argue that function itself is trivial, we are left with function and complexity. Right?
I am not saying that function is trivial, I am saying that in biology, finding a specification is trivial as all one has to do is decribe the function of a particular system.
I quoted van Till for instance to support my claim
Is the bacterial flagellum specified? Using Dembski’s own criterion, only if it exhibits a pattern that is detachable - wholly independent of the event that produced it. Appearing to set aside his laboriously crafted formalism regarding the specification and detachability requirements, Dembski simply asserts that in the case of biological systems specification always refers to function, and declares that biological functions are inherently detachable from the particular biological systems that instantiate them.
Or a more direct quote from Dembski
Mb>Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. In virtue of their function these systems embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified … (page 148)
Hope this clarifies?
In response to my question if Dembski has dared to respond to Wesley Elsberry’s algorithm room Roger suggests that
I don’t know if he has specifically addressed this scenario, but “dared” to address the idea inherent in it, he has done numerous times. If you think this isn’t something Dembski has considered, then you have either read little of him, or misunderstand that which you read, or maybe I have.
Maybe you can explain why you think this is such a challenge to Dembski.
Your first presumption is interesting: Did Dembski address the ‘idea inherent to it (algorithm room)’? This discussion could benefit from pointing out where either Dembski addressed the algorithm room directly and/or where Dembski addressed the idea inherent to it. In either case, I would be very interested in how Dembski resolves the issue.
Why is this a challenge to Dembski? Because it means that there are now two forms of CSI, one is apparant and one is actual. Unless Dembski can resolve how we distinguish between the two forms, the explanatory filter which relies on CSI can at best detect apparant versus actual design. Where the step from design cannot distinguish between apparant and actual designer. It seems that there are several steps where ID fails to explain how to resolve the age old question raised by Paley and addressed by Hume and others.
If ID cannot resolve the question between apparant and actual design, and if natural processes can be identified which can at least in principle explain the observed design, it seems that ID becomes superfluous via Occam’s razor.
Dembski again
Dembski If it could be shown that biological systems like the bacterial flagellum that are wonderfully complex, elegant, and integrated could have been formed by a gradual Darwinian process (which by definition is non-telic), then intelligent design would be falsified on the general grounds that one doesn’t invoke intelligent causes when purely natural causes will do. In that case Occam’s razor finishes off intelligent design quite nicely.
hope this clarifies my position.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
I have performed a search of Dembski and “algorithm room” on Google and on Amazon. In the case of Google, it invariably returns afaict references to Wesley’s challenge and how it has remained unaddressed. In case of Amazon, it returns a reference to room (Smithsonian room of artifacts with unknown function) ironically said room seems to have been more of a figment of imagination than an actual room.
Shallit addressed this in an interesting posting
Curious about Dembski’s claim, I wrote to the Smithsonian, and received the following fax dated April 16, 2002 from Kenneth Burke, Acting Program Coordinator, Public Inquiry Mail Service, Smithsonian Institution. It is reproduced in its entirety.
Your letter of March 21 has been referred to this office from the office of the Secretary for response.
The Smithsonian has no room such as described in William Dembski’s book. He may be referring to a section of an exhibition called Nation’s Attic which was displayed at the National Museum of History and Technology (now the National Museum of American History, Behring Center) from April 1, 1980 through February 8, 1981. We have enclosed a photocopy of a short article concerning the exhibition from Smithsonian magazine, April 1980. In one showcase in the exhibition a number of unindentified articles were displayed, but there was never a whole room devoted to them.
Your interest in the Smithsonian Institution is appreciated. [emphasis in bold added]
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 4:15 pm
PvM says:
Not in the least. You spend most of your effort trying to justify that which I already agreed to accept: substituting function for specification. But we should, if that is how you wish to proceed, end up with CFI. You should address both function and complexity, instead of only the latter.
Then we have this:
Yes, finding a function is trivial. Explaining the origins of the function isn’t. Isn’t that what is at the basis of the disagreement here? Hanna’s initial complaint stands.
As I already pointed out, I don’t think there are. The issue is about processes, and which ones can produce CSI. In the Algorithm Room, there are an intelligent agent, and other resources produced by intelligent agents. The question seems to be, is it live or is it memorex? But I don’t think ID need answer that question, because as long as an intelligent agent is involved in producing the CSI, the design inference is satisfied.
The attempt to claim that there are now two forms of CSI is really one of obfuscation, not clarification.
Comment by Roger Rabbitt — July 23, 2006 @ 4:38 pm
Roger argues: The attempt to claim that there are now two forms of CSI is really one of obfuscation, not clarification
It seems that your objections should be directed towards Dembski
William A. Dembski
EXPLAINING SPECIFIED COMPLEXITY
Roger also asks the excellent question: Not in the least. You spend most of your effort trying to justify that which I already agreed to accept: substituting function for specification. But we should, if that is how you wish to proceed, end up with CFI. You should address both function and complexity, instead of only the latter.
In order to infer CFI (which I presume to mean CSI) one has to show that a system or event contains a specification (which is function) and complexity. By showing a function, I have trivially addressed the issue of specification.
Roger also states: Yes, finding a function is trivial. Explaining the origins of the function isn’t. Isn’t that what is at the basis of the disagreement here? Hanna’s initial complaint stands.
Not really, you are right that explaining is not trivial which is why I conclude that ID is mostly an argument from ignorance which relies on our ignorance to explain something to conclude ‘design’ while presenting NO explanation for the system/event itself. It merely claims ‘design’ but design is just a placeholder for our ignorance.
Explaining the origin of function is indeed non-trivial which is why evolutionary science is so exciting as it slowly attempts to unravel the causal history of a system. For instance, while far from complete, evolutionary theory has begun to unravel the origin and evolution of the bacterial flagella. I fail to see how ID explains the origin of the function of the flagella.
Remember that calling it designed is no explanation beyond stating that ’science has failed so far to explain’. In fact, the existence of scientific hypotheses forces ID to do the calculations of specificational resources and replicational resources combined with P(T|H) before it can even claim that something is designed. So far ID has provided no guidance as to how to calculate these measures. In fact, I believe that in most non-trivial cases these measures are incalculable (sp)…
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
Roger: But I don’t think ID need answer that question, because as long as an intelligent agent is involved in producing the CSI, the design inference is satisfied.
So in other words, we accept that (evolutionary) algorithms can generate the appearance of design?
And ID provides no way to differentiate between the two? I understand that Dembski has attempted to use the ‘displacement ‘theorem'’ to argue that inevitable there needs to be a source for CSI and that algorithms merely displace CSI. Note that the same problem applies equally to intelligent design which is limited to natural designers. In fact, I argue, that in both cases either CSI is generated or CSI is displaced. If CSI is displaced then the problem becomes one of original CSI but that is a very similar argument to the origin of original matter/energy and original entropy.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
The statement: “H is the actual process given H is the actual process” is symbolically P(H|H) = 1. P(H|H) is the likelihood that statement is true, and is 1.
PvM’s assertions have obfuscated the issue. More worthless Ping-Pong.
In contrast, we have the statement: “T happened and H is the actual process”. The likelihood that this statement is true is P(T|H).
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 5:00 pm
PvM says:
I’m dumbfounded as to why you think so. The quote YOU picked says nothing about two types of CSI. It says that certain processes mistakenly asserted by some to produce CSI, don’t produce complexity, hence don’t produce CSI. I think he is there agreeing with my point, not yours.
Of course, accepting your assertions and logic, the same holds true for Darwinian evolution or evolutionary science. I’m not sure you wanna go there.
Comment by Roger Rabbitt — July 23, 2006 @ 5:36 pm
Sal: In contrast, we have the statement: “T happened and H is the actual process”. The likelihood that this statement is true is P(T|H).
In other words, the likihood that T happened given process H becomes 1 or close to one whenever H is the actual process that lead up to T.
Seems basic logic to me. Actually P(T|H) is just refered to as the likelihood of T given H.
But if some outcome B is necessary given antecedent conditions A, then the probability of B given A is one, and the information in B given A is zero. If B is necessary given A, Formula (*) reduces to I(A&B) = I(A), which is to say that B contributes no new information to A. It follows that necessity is incapable of generating new information. Observe that what Eigen calls “algorithms” and “natural laws” fall under necessity.
Dembski Intelligent Design as a Theory of Information
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
Roger: f course, accepting your assertions and logic, the same holds true for Darwinian evolution or evolutionary science. I’m not sure you wanna go there.
I am sure you do not think that the tu-quoque defense is a valid objection? If as you say, evolutionary theory is equally guilty then the conclusions should be similar. But I think that you would have a much harder time showing that evolutionary theory is guilty of an appeal to ignorance and provides no supporting evidence for its mechanisms.
So yes, I do want to go down that path since it
1) Shows that ID is vacuous while arguing that evolutionary science MAY BE vacuous
2) Showing that evolutionary science matches my description is non-trivial
So by all means, start the march, remember that we however have to agree that ID is flawed and that evolution MAY BE flawed?
As far as the Dembski quote, how did Dembski resolve the actual versus apparent CSI? How does one resolve this with respect to the algorithm room?
I am still awaiting a resolution of this issue: If algorithms can give the appearance of complexity being generated then how do we distinguish between apparent and actual complexity?
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 5:46 pm
Depends on what you mean by “evolutionary algorithms”. For example, Dawkins WEASEL program itself exhibits design. And it isn’t surprising, because it was designed for a purpose. But does the alogrithm generate the “appearance of design”, or does the algorithm’s author, an intelligent agent, do that?
Then we need to address the question of whether Natural Selection can produce CSI? And how do we establish a principled distinction (if one exists) between a WEASEL program and NS? I think these are legitimate questions that ID raises.
That isn’t ID’s focus. But that really isn’t an appropriate way to ask the question. Can science differentiate between the two? It might seem to depend on the specific circumstances, and the tools we have at hand. And maybe, on what we see as the principled issues at play.
Comment by Roger Rabbitt — July 23, 2006 @ 5:56 pm
Roger, it does not matter what I mean by evolutionary algorithms. Dembski’s argument is that algorithms can create apparent CSI and does not provide a way how to resolve it?
If that is not ID’s focus then it should because this is the fundamental issue between science and ID. And it shows that ID has not evolved much since the days of Paley.
If you want to trivialize ID, that’s fine with me.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 6:19 pm
PvM says:
I had to look that one up. And interestingly enough, the first two links had conflicting descriptions, one describing it as a form of Ad hom, which seems to be closer to the original latin meaning. The other described it as it related to the positions. So certainly, the first definition didn’t apply. And I would argue the second doesn’t either, although I can see how you might think it did. I think you intended your initial assertion to be somewhat critical of ID. My response wasn’t in kind at all.
My response was merely to accept your assertions and logic, and see how it applied to evolutionary theory. I’m not saying I accept your logic as objectively correct, so I needn’t worry myself about showing your cherished position as “guilty” of something, since I don’t think in those terms.
Like Hanna, I’m not so convinced that ID is true, as I am fascinated by the poor logic of most Darwinist arguments. For myself, I don’t claim to know the Truth. But I’m pretty good at evaluating arguments.
Gee, weren’t you the one with the quote, hence access to the source? If you want to cite a specific instance, do so. But I thought the quote was pretty clear: As a general rule, if a GA doesn’t produce complexity, then it can’t produce CSI. That isn’t very difficult to understand.
You assume he needs to resolve this with respect to the algorithm room. I don’t. Feel free to make the case, if you think you have one. Since all the “resources” in the AR are either IA’s, or the product of IA’s, the DI is confirmed. Whether the “black box” process is producing the CSI primarily or secondarily isn’t something that ID obsesses over. Feel free to, if it makes you feel better.
Comment by Roger Rabbitt — July 23, 2006 @ 6:56 pm
Roger: Gee, weren’t you the one with the quote, hence access to the source? If you want to cite a specific instance, do so. But I thought the quote was pretty clear: As a general rule, if a GA doesn’t produce complexity, then it can’t produce CSI. That isn’t very difficult to understand.
The problem is when a GA does produce apparent CSI. If it does not produce complexity then of course, it does not produce complexity.
Roger: Whether the “black box” process is producing the CSI primarily or secondarily isn’t something that ID obsesses over. Feel free to, if it makes you feel better.
So we accept that algorithms can generate complex specified information and ID has provided no way to differentiate between the two?
Remember, one is the outcome of an algorithm, the other of the work of an intelligent designer. The argument is that the intelligent designer generates CSI, and the algorithm generates apparent CSI.
That’s like saying that design can be apparent or actual and providing no way to distinguish between the two.
As such ID has not progressed much since Paley and Hume’s days.
As far as the question “Of course, accepting your assertions and logic, the same holds true for Darwinian evolution or evolutionary science. I’m not sure you wanna go there.”
I have invited you to do exactly this. You are ofcourse free to ignore my request but given the ground rules of the board I am within the rules to ask you to support your claims.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 7:13 pm
Which PvM (Pim van Meurs) mangles to death and misrepresents.
We have a space Omega of possible outcomes.
H induces a probability measure P defined on Omege (i.e., P(•|H) is defined for subsets of Omega).
Which implies P(Omega) = 1 since by definition H induces a probability measure on Omega.
But this implies then that P( T | H) cannot equal 1 in general for an arbitrary T since T is a subset of Omega.
Thus, contrary to PvM’s assertion, P(T|H) for a given T, in general, is not 1.
See Probability Space to learn of probability measures on Omega.
For some examples of P(X|H) not equal to 1 see, Basic Counting.
I now invite PvM to continue with his Chewbacca Defense :=)
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 7:23 pm
PvM–
Not really. I’ll assume that you are well-intentioned and are not trying to make things up and think you are addressing the argument… but, whatever your intentions are, you aren’t addressing it at all. Drastic oversimplifications might work in a non-university setting or where everyone desperately wants to believe you, but not here.
Except that you wouldn’t address it, though I asked you numerous times, and didn’t seem willing to be able to do anything other than explain, over and over, that the log of 1 is zero. So? I know that. I’m not taking the log of 1.
This is a good deal more reasonable than your previous claims, although “high” is still unfounded. One may have an unspecified outcome, produced entirely by chance, where P(T|H)– given the actual chance hypothesis H– is extremely low.
If Dembski’s reasoning in Design Inference is valid, chance and necessity cannot theoretically produce complex specified information and CSI is thus a valid signifier of design. This is not a tautological statement, nor is the statement “in all situations in which we have a causal history, the presence of complex specified information unequivocally entails intelligent agency” tautological.
Comment by Hannah — July 23, 2006 @ 7:27 pm
Hannah,
I provide a counter example to PvM’s claim in addition to my post above.
Given 500 fair coins, let Omega be the space of all possible outcomes, and H the appropriate chance hypothesis inducing a probability measure P on Omega. Furthermore, let T correspond to 1 element in Omega (formally a singleton subset). Then:
P (T|H) = 1/ 2^500
Thus, PvM is wrong.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 7:47 pm
Hannah: Not really. I’ll assume that you are well-intentioned and are not trying to make things up and think you are addressing the argument… but, whatever your intentions are, you aren’t addressing it at all. Drastic oversimplifications might work in a non-university setting or where everyone desperately wants to believe you, but not here.
You have failed to show that these are ‘drastic’ oversimplifications. I do not believe that in this case it is one of people desperately wanting to be lieve me as much as people desperately trying to avoid the consequences of ID’s own thesis.
Hannah: Except that you wouldn’t address it, though I asked you numerous times, and didn’t seem willing to be able to do anything other than explain, over and over, that the log of 1 is zero. So? I know that. I’m not taking the log of 1.
So present your argument why you believe I am mistaken. After all, you suggested yourself that this is a university environment.
Hannah: If Dembski’s reasoning in Design Inference is valid, chance and necessity cannot theoretically produce complex specified information and CSI is thus a valid signifier of design.
Not at all. It is a way to compute our ignorance and claim that it is a valid signifier of design because science cannot generate complexity.
I thought that even at universities people understand that you cannot define something to be true and then claim that see ‘it’s true’.
If CSI cannot be generated by definition by Natural processes then showing that something has CSI means nothing. Certainly the claim that we detected CSI and thus this is evidence of design is flawed since there is no way that natural processes could generate CSI.
So when we calculate CSI it is merely a placeholder for the fact that the likelihood of something named H explaining T is too small. In other words, an appeal to ignorance. The moment we discover the right hypothesis, CSI disappears by definition.
You have shown that a chance process alone can be complex but fails to have specification and we know that regularity processes can have specification but by definition no information. So what do we establish when we infer CSI/design: that the likelihood of present hypotheses is too small. In fact, it our inability to explain T with H which generates CSI. Once we understand how the system arose, P(T|H) becomes high enough that any CSI quickly disappears and becomes close to zero or in the new definition negative.
As far as Sal’s claim is concerned, could he walk us through the calculations? We all appreciate that the probability of n random coin tosses obtaining a particular outcome is .5^n but what is the probability of a random set T occuring under the hypothesis H that the coin toss is random?
Still 0.5^n?
Of course pure chance hypotheses are of little interest since they lack according to Dembski by definition specification.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 9:40 pm
Sal: But this implies then that P( T | H) cannot equal 1 in general for an arbitrary T since T is a subset of Omega.
And yet it is 1 by definition when H is a regularity.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 9:42 pm
Haven’t I? This is your argument, recall:
And this is your elaboration on it:
Your entire argument is built on the premise that P(T|H) for a chance/necessity based event is one. As I have demostrated, that is nonsense. Therefore your entire argument is vacuous and your simplifications, also based on that invalid premise, are simply misrepresentations or misinterpretations.
Moreover, Dembski’s definition, as I have given it here, is not circular or tautological in any sense; and calculating CSI is in fact a perfectly logical way to go about inferring design.
If you still hold that P(T|H) for a chance-based process is one, I’ll write up a clearer counter-example. But really you could find the same in any probability textbook.
If you don’t have any quarrel with Dembski’s actual definition, you don’t have to argue. We can go on to something else; I do appreciate your willingness to engage here.
Comment by Hannah — July 23, 2006 @ 10:10 pm
Salvador writes:
The above is only correct if H induces a uniform probability measure. Alternatively, as an extreme example, H could induce a probability measure P s.t. P(T|H)=1, and for all S in Omega s.t. S!=T, P(S|H)=0. That seems to be the scenario that PvM was describing.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 23, 2006 @ 10:20 pm
But we weren’t talking about regular deterministic immutable outcomes (regularities) were we PvM ?
We were talking about improbable chance events. Thus again, you misrepresent Dembski’s ideas.
You got the whole discussion derailed with The obfuscation that
which is not generally true, and definitely not true for the cases under discussion, namely non-deterministic improbable events.
Hannah has called you on it, and every math major reading this knows you’ve totally botched it when you asserted P(T|H) = 1. Why are you being so belligerant on this issue? This is basic probability.
So what? It wasn’t the scenario Debmski was describing, thus PvM was misrepresenting Dembski since Dembski was not talking about any such P(T|H) = 1, but P(T|H) = some very small number.
Why are you coming to PvM’s defense here? Are you claiming before all the readers he’s representing Dembski accurately by saying P(T|H) = 1? Or are you consciously going to be party to this misrepresentation before the students?
You may want to be careful since the students have Dembski’s book Design Inference. I suggest you not try to comment on a book you don’t even have.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 10:30 pm
This raises the interesting issue of uniform probability measures. Considering the Darwinian evolution argues for “Random with respect to fitness” the outcome of events can not be biased toward selective advantage in anyway (as that would suggest teleology).
Thus choosing probability distributions that ultimately bias the outcome toward design in any way are inappropriate, hence, a uniform distribution, though not mandatory, is not a bad starting hypothesis, given there can not be correlation between random mutations and future outcomes.
The displacement theorem effectively demonstrates any such biasing of distributions is not being consistent with the fundamental tenets of Darwinian evolution.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 10:41 pm
Salvador continually accuses Pim of mispresenting this that or the other but, reading the thread in its entirety, I’m not seeing that all.
My suggestion to Sal and Hannah would be: if you think you have succeeded in clarifying and improving on Dembski’s “theory” — which has been discredited and is virtually ignored by professional biologists and mathematicians who are working in biology — then why not publish your clarifications/improvements in a peer-reviewed journal?
I’m tired of hearing Sal accuse Pim of misrepresenting this that and the other. If Dembski was the brilliant genius that Sal and Hannah seem to think he is, then he would be able to respond to his critics himself and address his critics’ comments in a clear and articulate manner.
Dembski hasn’t done that. Instead, he scoffed at them with his infamous comment re “pathetic level of detail” and runs a blog in which he, along with a truly vile character named DaveScot, mocks evolutionary biologists. How does Dembski expect anyone to take him seriously? Is it the work of undergrads like Hannah and evangelists like Sal to carry water for him?
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 23, 2006 @ 10:46 pm
Michael–
It’s not a personality issue at all, it’s an issue of good math and rigorous science, and avoiding charlatan rebuttals. No-one is going to take PvM seriously on this subject until he presents a serious critique of CSI. That would mean one not based on the premise “for convenience, CSI may be defined as everything we don’t know” or the embarassingly bad “P(T|H)=1 for all known chance/necessity mechanisms”.
Dembski’s character is not a matter of discussion on this thread; even if he is a vile scoundrel, that is perfectly irrelevant. The question here has to do with math, which, happily, is not relative and cannot be tarnished by unsavory associations. It remains that everyone here has utterly failed in making any relevant critique of CSI or its use in the design inference. There hasn’t been anything to clarify/improve simply because the critiques haven’t got to that level.
That isn’t to disparge PvM or any of you, and perhaps you have sound criticisms you haven’t yet laid out– but I can’t assume that till I read them.
Comment by Hannah — July 23, 2006 @ 11:03 pm
Then are you saying P(T|H) = 1 as a general principle with respect to the hypotheses under consideration?
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 23, 2006 @ 11:27 pm
Michael has a good point but I do not mind being accused. I understand that my contributions may generate a certain level of discomfort and I am more than aware of the various steps of recovery, one of which involves denial and anger.
It’s not a personality issue at all, it’s an issue of good math and rigorous science, and avoiding charlatan rebuttals. No-one is going to take PvM seriously on this subject until he presents a serious critique of CSI. That would mean one not based on the premise “for convenience, CSI may be defined as everything we don’t know” or the embarassingly bad “P(T|H)=1 for all known chance/necessity mechanisms”.
I appreciate your claim and I am looking forward to you explaining why this is an ‘embarassingly bad’ argument. I, like hopefully others, are willing to be educated in areas where others believe we have flaws.
I understand why you use the term charlatan rebuttal. No hard feelings though.
I hope that someone familiar with the ID arguments will stand up and defend the claims. Sal has taken a position in which he reduces ID basically to an argument from analogy.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how Dembski envisions to deal with the concept of apparent versus actual CSI?
Hannah: Your entire argument is built on the premise that P(T|H) for a chance/necessity based event is one. As I have demostrated, that is nonsense. Therefore your entire argument is vacuous and your simplifications, also based on that invalid premise, are simply misrepresentations or misinterpretations.
Okay, let’s for the moment assume that the probability is not 1, although per Dembski it is for purely regular pathways. In order for a hypothesis to have any relevance it has to have a high likelihood of being correct. In other words, given the hypothesis H, the probability of T happening has to be high. Unless P(T|H) is smaller than 10^-120, CSI will remain negative. In other words, we are looking for a scenario in which a hypothesis H which has a low probability in explaining T is somehow accepted as a relevant hypothesis. Do you have any idea how silly this sounds? In order for a hypothesis to make sense, it’s ability to explain the event T has to be small.
If we however identify a hypothesis (regularity and chance combined, just as in evolutionary algorithms or evolutionary pathways) we are forced to accept one which has no explanatory power in order for the hypothesis to be able to generate CSI.
Now let’s extend this same argument to design. What is P(T|H) where H is the hypothesis that design is responsible for T? Is it sufficiently small that it can generate CSI or does it rely on the failure of science to identify testable hypotheses and thus the default uniform chance calculation suffices? In other words, CSI is not created by the designer but rather it is created by our inability to explain T. No attempt is made to show that there is even a reasonable design hypothesis. In fact, if a reasonable design hypothesis is proposed then like in the case of regularity and chance, we will notice that such a hypothesis has a reasonable probability of being able to explain T (note that I will accept your claim that P(T|H)=1 is not generic and only applies to hypotheses based on regularities alone) and because of this reasonable likelihood, the information it generates is negative (latest definition) or small (original definition). In either case, a hypothesis which explains T sufficiently well, will cause the CSI to collapse from > 150 bits lets say to a negative number or a small positive number in Dembski’s original definition.
So either CSI is defined in such a way that it precludes by definition chance and regularity processes from generating it. Such as claiming that specification cannot be explained by a purely random process, only complexity and that complexity cannot be explained by regularity but that regularity can only explain specification.
So how does evolutionary theory resolve this? By pointing out that selection and chance combined can act like ‘probability amplifiers’ making a particular pathway far more likely than by chance alone. And yet, such a pathway also, by definition contains less information because it becomes more probable.
Now we get to the claim of CSI. Without ANY proof, it is presumed that intelligent design can create CSI but I have not seen any proposed P(E|H) calculations that allow one to draw that conclusion.
But at the same time it is also argued that there exists actual and apparent CSI, admitting that algorithms can in fact generate CSI but only apparantly. Because once we are given the algorithm, the probability of success is reasonably large, eliminating any apparant CSI. And yet, somehow the same argument does not apply to design hypotheses. Is that not weird, how such symmetry is lacking and design is given a preferential position of neither having to explain anything as well as gaining CSI because of our ignorance to explain something?
The P(T|H)=1 focus only distracts from the real argument that regularity cannot generate complexity and chance cannot explain specifications.
So if the argument is that we have examples/evidence of intelligent design generating CSI then I want to see the relevant calculations and I would like to understand why if a chance/regularity algorithm generates the same outcome, it is only apparent CSI and how one envisions to differentiate between the two types.
Math is only as useful as it is logical and I find that in the case of CSI, too many issues are presumed rather than argued or derived and that CSI for a designed object is inferred from our ignorance and yet when knowledge is added, the CSI disappears, disallowing by definition natural processes of chance and regularity to generate CSI.
At the same time we also see example where ID proponents, including Dembski, that CSI was generated by algorithms but that since they are algorithms, they can only displace CSI not generate it. So why does the displacement argument only apply to algorithms and not to intelligent designers?
The lack of symmetry once again indicates a potential problem area.
Hannah: Moreover, Dembski’s definition, as I have given it here, is not circular or tautological in any sense; and calculating CSI is in fact a perfectly logical way to go about inferring design.
I politely disagree. Not only with the logical part but also with the practical part. Since ID relies strongly on the claim that it has detected CSI, such calculations need to be shared. If CSI can be generated by strawmen chance hypotheses then why should this be seen as evidence of CSI? All I need to do is formulate a highly improbable chance hypothesis which generates lots of complexity, state look CSI.. Must have been designed.
If you still hold that P(T|H) for a chance-based process is one, I’ll write up a clearer counter-example. But really you could find the same in any probability textbook.
I would appreciate a clearer counter example. I know myself how hard it sometimes is to convey a concept or argument to others.
For instance what is P(T|H) when T is the observation of 500 Tails and H is the uniformly distributed chance hypothesis? What is it P(T|H) when T is a perfectly uniformly randomly distributed distribution and H is the hypothesis of a uniform distribution.
Surely in the latter case H explains the observation much better than in the former case.
In Christ.
Comment by PvM — July 23, 2006 @ 11:59 pm
Sal: Then are you saying P(T|H) = 1 as a general principle with respect to the hypotheses under consideration?
We now it is true if H is a regularity. I have asked the same question in a previous posting but it is worth repeating here
T: 500 Tails
H: Uniformly random distribution
What is P(T|H)
T: Uniformly random distributed Head and Tail
H: Uniformly random distribution
What is P(T|H)
Surely P(T|H) should be higher for the hypothesis which explains T better? In other words, the observation of a randomly distributed heads and tail should be best explained by assuming a hypothesis of a randomly distributed function?
And while you are doing the calculations, I am concerned that P(T|H) where H is the design hypothesis also fails to generate any CSI. Could you please explain why for design, if it were the correct hypothesis H, P(T|H) should still be extremely small and explain why if H is a chance/regularity algorithm, the probability somehow becomes high enough to destroy any CSI. Or generate apparent CSI for which we have no known method to differentiate it from actual CSI?
Comment by PvM — July 24, 2006 @ 12:04 am
SalThis raises the interesting issue of uniform probability measures. Considering the Darwinian evolution argues for “Random with respect to fitness” the outcome of events can not be biased toward selective advantage in anyway (as that would suggest teleology).
Thus choosing probability distributions that ultimately bias the outcome toward design in any way are inappropriate, hence, a uniform distribution, though not mandatory, is not a bad starting hypothesis, given there can not be correlation between random mutations and future outcomes.
In other words, since we cannot predict how designers act, we should model their behavior using a uniformly distributed random probability? Or do we actually venture to capture the essentials of natural selection and variation which make it so much different from a uniformly distributed probability?
After all, we do not want to repeat the fallacies of the creationists who have used pure chance arguments to argue against the probability of evolution.
To see where this may lead:
An event T has 500 outcomes either yes or no, I will model the design hypothesis by assuming that the designer acts randomly and thus I will show that the probability of such a hypothesis is extremely small.
Why should we accept strawmen? Even as first order approximations they severely decrease the probabilities. In fact, why not attempt the opposite: Provide the most likely scenario from a probability perspective and show that T is still unlikely. But that would mean 1) generating good hypotheses and 2) ways to calculate the involved probabilities.
Sal may have pointed out why ID is just an analogy since calculating CSI is almost impossible for any non-trivial example, unless one presumes nothing and uses uniform distribution, but we already know that this is a highly unlikely hypothesis by itself.
Also, although variation is random, it is random wrt to its immediate effect. This does not mean that mutations are random in either location or distribution etc. We for instance know that most mutations are neutral, followed by a small amount of detrimental and beneficial mutations. The latter are the hardest to estimate.
Let’s not confuse the term random with uniformly distributed lest we want to argue a strawman.
Remember chance is only one aspect, the outcome of evolution is inevitable biased wrt fitness, that’s the whole point. Variation is not biased, or at least not preferentially biased. Science has argued that evolution can evolve ways to improve its fortune based on the past, more on this when appropriate.
Comment by PvM — July 24, 2006 @ 12:19 am
But regularities were not what was under consideration. You are not representing Dembski’s work accurately. You are employoing Argumentum ad nauseam and repeating a misrepresentation.
The H under consideration does not imply
P(T|H) = 1
When are you going to stop repeating your misrepresentation? Where in Dembski’s works does it say we look for chance hypotheses such that P(T|H) = 1? Chapter and verse please.
Otherwise drop it, you’re making the readers ill with your Argumentum ad nauseam that P(T|H) = 1.
T is not distribution. T is a non-empty subset of outcomes in the space Omega of possible outcomes. It is not a distribution.
You’re making mathematically nonsensical assertions, PvM. C’mon bud, you’re embarassing yourself before the students out there. Enough already, all right. You may mean well, but what you’re doing does not help anyone…..
Stop insisting P(T|H)=1 for the hypotheses under consideration and we can move the discussion forward.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 12:39 am
You must have missed that I did drop insisting this to prevent people to distract from the argument.
Btw let’s presume that T is an outcome which is uniformly distributed, what is P(T|H)?
Let’s explore these issues Sal. Support your calculations for P(T|H) where H is a chance hypothesis.
And since I have dropped for the moment the argument that P(T|H)=1 and we can explore some of the other unaddressed flaws of CSI.
Apparant versus actual… To be or not be, that is the question.
But no way to resolve what CSI is apparant and what CSI is actual.
Comment by PvM — July 24, 2006 @ 1:16 am
Let’s see what I can do to get the thread back on topic. Let’s explore some of the claims and see where they lead
HannahAgain that’s nonsense; probably stemming from problems with your “likelihood 1″ scenario. It is true that, theoretically, if Dembski’s claims in Design Inference hold, chance and necessity are unable to generate CSI. Else it wouldn’t be very relevant. But you haven’t demonstrated any basis for your claim of a tautology.
Necessity is by definition unable to generate CSI because P(E|H)=1. Chance is by definition unable to generate CSI because of its failure to specify.
So now we have two more classes of hypotheses:
Intelligent Designer: Although ID claims that intelligence is the only known entity to be able to generate CSI, no such evidence has been presented to support such a conclusion and I would appreciate any correction to my observation. In fact, I argue that P(T|H) when H is the design hypothesis is sufficiently large that CSI is minimal, not unlike the final process which is combination of regularity and chance.
Regularity provides the specification and chance offers the complexity. So now we in fact have processes which can explain at least in principle CSI. So now the question is, have any such hypotheses been tested to show that they generate insufficient CSI? We already know that such processes can create apparent CSI. So how have these pathways been eliminated. As far as I can tell, the only example for the flagellum involved a strawman chance approach which seems to have established that even the development of the flagellum is fully implausible.
Let’s restore some symmetry here
Apparent versus actual CSI
Regularity and chance cannot generate CSI versus Intelligent Designers cannot generate CSI
Regularity and chance have not been shown to be able to generate CSI versus Intelligent Design has not been shown to be able to generate CSI
So many presumptions that would benefit from some evidence.
No wonder that Sal responded as follows:
SalThus by definition, certain objects are designed, whether it is intelligently designed is a separate issue, which, IDers claim is inferred through analogy.
Based on Sal’s argument, we may as well ignore CSI since it help not address if something is designed by natural processes of regularity or chance and the real argument of ID is found in the weakest form of argumentation “analogy”.
Sal mirrors the apparent versus actual CSI argument raised originally by Wesley Elsberry.
So given this stalemate we have an argument from analogy, much like Paley’s and an argument from mechanisms, empirical data, pathways from science. How well does one believe an analogy fares when confronted with such details? And it’s not that ID is not interested in generating such pathways, mechanisms etc, it argues that ID cannot be held to such tasks
A small side step to address a confusion
Sal
Darwinian evolution has only avoided scrutiny by arguing “natural selection” is not itself rooted in a chance mechanism. However, when one realizes “natural selection” is properly model by random variables as well, one realizes Darwinian evolution is self-contradictory mathematically, much like arguing the square root of 2 is rational (a ratio of two integers).
Sal seems to misunderstand what evolutionists argue. Evolutionist argue that the mechanisms of evolution include chance (variation) and natural selection. So in fact, it is not chance alone, it is not random although it may have aspects of chance associated with them. It’s the combination of chance and regularity which amplifies probabilities, to use Dembski speak.
Now another presumption that could benefit from more data:
SecondClass It’s a mathematical fact that the complement of necessity and chance is an empty set.
To be more to the point: ID defines the complement of chance and necessity ‘intelligent design’ but it has not shown that it is in fact different from the empty set which would suggest that design inferences based on the filter are in fact all false positives.
While intelligent design is commonly inferred in criminology, archaeology etc, I argue that such inferences do not rely on the eliminative approach which is inherently unreliable and instead relies on means motives, opportunity, etc to ‘convict’ so to speak.
Comment by PvM — July 24, 2006 @ 1:47 am
Well thank you for admitting your error.
Pim,
I’m afraid that is sloppy phrasing at best and non-sensical at worst.
If H induces a uniform probability on each outcome in Omega then
P(T|H) = |T| / |Omega|
where
|T| is the cardinality of a set T of outcomes
|Omega| is the cardinality of set Omega
Good night.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 2:00 am
Hannah
It’s not a personality issue at all, it’s an issue of good math and rigorous science, and avoiding charlatan rebuttals. No-one is going to take PvM seriously on this subject until he presents a serious critique of CSI.
And who gets to be the judge of that, Hannah? You and Sal?
A number of commenters have laid waste to CSI here already. It’s a dead concept as it has never been defined in a useful way, i.e., a way which allow scientists to actually use the concept to generate knowledge, i.e., by making testable predictions.
As always, you and Sal “have the right” to believe whatever you want. For the record, I take Pim seriously on this subject, Hannah. I also take seriously the many well-considered and credible scientists and mathematicians who have publically explained why CSI is bogus.
Why wouldn’t I? What possible reason would there be to take Sal seriously on the subject of CSI? Or you? Seriously.
Recall that Behe had a chance to explain his remarkable concept to the world on a very visible public stage and he failed miserably. Now you and Sal appear ready to resuscitate him. Why not simply publish your progress in a peer-reviewed journal?
After all, this CSI stuff is important and groundbreaking, or so we’re told. What’s the problem?
It remains that everyone here has utterly failed in making any relevant critique of CSI or its use in the design inference.
Utterly failed? This is outrageously wrong. CIS and its use in the “design inference” has been decapitated. You’re dancing the corpse around, Hannah, but “everyone” can see the strings.
And by “everyone” I don’t mean just the scientifically inclined folks here, I mean the world of professional scientists. Behe is a non-entity as far as molecular biology is concerned. There is a very rational reason for that and it’s not because he’s a Catholic. Or do you deny that it is rational to dismiss unworkable broken theories?
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 2:02 am
Thanks Sal but this is still not very helpful. Could you present the actual values for the two examples I provided?
Common sense suggests that P(T|H) is larger when T and H match more closely than when T and H are in obvious contradiction. Thus when T is the outcome which is uniformly distributed versus T is the outcome of all Tails, one would expect a difference in the P(T|H). After all, the outcome of a random set of heads and tails seems more likely when given a hypothesis of a random set of heads and tails (pardon the sloppy language) than when the set is all heads and the hypothesis is a random set of heads and tails. In fact, we can safely assume that P(T|H) becomes 1 when H fully necessitates the outcome (if H is a regularity).
As I stated, I am not so interested in pure chance processes because they are likely to be relevant in the discussion of evolutionary algorithms. So the question becomes: can a combination of regularity and chance generate CSI? Actual or apparent and what is the difference?
Imagine a fitness landscape of 100000x10000 squares, trivially extended to any complexity. Can regularity and chance processes actualize a very unlikely outcome just like it is argued for intelligent design?
Now we have to be careful to allow for equal treatment of both hypotheses, so if the intervention of the designer turns an initially complex (improbable) outcome into a very probable outcome then we have to allow for the possibility that a algorithm can do the same. At least a priori there seems to be no reason to reject this. One could argue that designers infer some powers onto the outcome that cannot be defined in terms of regularity and chance but that seems an unnecessary a-priori limitation. Especially given our knowledge that intelligence can be captured in terms of regularity and chance processes. In fact, although Dembski, IIRC, has argued that a Turing machine combined with the completeness problem (it’s early and I may be mixing up terminology here) indicates that a machine is good at one thing and does it perfectly while a human has the freedom to respond unconstrained. But as Edis has shown, adding a component of randomness resolves this issue. So in fact, it seems that at least in principle regularity and chance are sufficient.
Now as I have shown, random search under NFL theorems is quite effective in searching and it will find a near optimal solution in virtually ‘no time’. Combine this with Gavrilets’ findings that a highly dimensional landscape (which is what an evolutionary landscape is) quickly turns into a well connected system. This is easily to comprehend although somewhat counterintuitive. If an optimization using let’s say two variables runs into a problem of a chasm, there are n-2 variables that can still vary and the likelihood that another one finds a bypass increases with n.
So now we have two features that show that despite an initial complex problem, finding a solution by moving from a low fitness to a near optimal fitness is not that hard, so in fact, actualization of an improbable outcome is not that hard after all.
So how do we explain an intelligent agent being able to generate CSI? Well, when an improbable outcome is actualized. But how to define improbable? Sal suggested that a uniform distribution function may be a good choice given no additional information so let’s use his recommendation and see where this leads us. In both cases, P(T|H) will be equal where T is the event or outcome and H is the uniformly distributed chance hypothesis. So in both cases we turn something unlikely into something likely. Now Dembski has argued that the outcome P(T|H) becomes likely when H becomes the hypothesis of the algorithm, but then logically the same should apply to the intelligent designer, unless he totally randomly did something, but then would we want to call it design anyway… After all, we now how chance processes can do something totally randomly and we would not call that design either. But I digress.
In both cases we start with an unlikely situation which is instantiated by design/algorithm. But if we don’t know what happened, we have the problem of the algorithm room where it becomes impossible to determine if the complexity arose via design or via an evolutionary algorithm. So we have something that appears to contain CSI but we have no way to determine if it really is actual CSI or just apparent. We can’t say: well, the hypothesis is algorithm thus it must be apparant, remember we have the exact same problem and solution. Now we could give the human some insight into the problem but that would be cheating or as Dembski calls it, displacement of CSI rather than creation of CSI.
I hope it has become clear that these are real issue to deal with and I have seen no attempt by Dembski or others to address the algorithm room problem. In fact, Dembski used the Weasel rather than the far more appropriate algorithm room as his example.
In this context the following argument by Dembski seems relevant
It is no longer complex with respect to the probability induced by the evolutionary algorithm E. But then the same argument applies to Intelligent Design hypothesis.
Wesley Elsberry concludes, and I agree with him
Comment by PvM — July 24, 2006 @ 2:37 am
Thanks Michael, yes it is somewhat tiresome to be accused of misrepresentation, or making the readers ill or being named in close proximity to ‘charlatans’ but hey, I believe in the strength of arguments and while it is annoying and distracting, I am at heart a scientist and thus believe that our arguments are being judged based on its merrits. As such I have made a very strong effort to not only support my own claims to the best of my abilities, but also to invite others to do the same.
That is how good science works.
I thoroughly enjoy a well reasoned argument and appreciate it when others join me to explore the depth or shallowness of certain concepts.
And yet, I am also human and understand how my actions can be interpreted as annoying leading to a strong emotional denial of my claims. Such emotions strengthen when the beliefs of others are threatened or perceived to be threatened. I see this as nothing more than a left-over from out evolutionary past. In fact, it is very plausible that we do not even realize the effect of a stressor on ourselves and our responses to it. In the end we are all human and we can resolve our disagreements in a hopefully amicable manner without the need to resort to too many hyperbole.
Claims that noone is going to take me seriously show that I am making an impact and although I do not enjoy the statement, as it is so ‘in your face’, I also do understand it.
As a Christian, that’s where my forgiving nature kicks in. I may complain and whine but I attempt to keep the discussion civil and return it to a level worthy of these boards.
If my words have caused people on this board discomfort then I apologize for this as I do understand and appreciate these feelings and their impact.
Comment by PvM — July 24, 2006 @ 2:51 am
If my words have caused people on this board discomfort then I apologize for this as I do understand and appreciate these feelings and their impact.
Honestly, I don’t think you have much to worry about as I am guessing that the number of people who actually read your longer posts here in their entirety is close to zero. That’s not a criticism of your posts, just some speculation based on the limited number of commenters here.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 3:38 am
Hannah
Dembski’s character is not a matter of discussion on this thread…. The question here has to do with math, which, happily, is not relative and cannot be tarnished by unsavory associations.
Yes, I’ve heard this “argument” before but the fact remains that nobody including Dembski understands how the terms Dembski throws around can be defined consistently so as to produce a test which actually works to make a prediction that is testable and interesting to biologists.
So we find ourselves in this awkward situation where Hannah and Sal appear to understand something that professional mathematicians and biologists think is “written in jello” or useless.
Yet Hannah and Sal are not able to provide us with a clear description of this revolutionary concept. How about simply a list of the key terms and their FIXED definitions, where those definitions are devoid of jargon or vague subterms which will suddenly become the “key” to understanding this “algorithm” when everything else has been debunked?
That would be a great start. Maybe Sal and Hannah can take a few days to just sit and decide what those definitions are that they are going to stick with and then, once they are satisfied, we can apply the “algorithm” to some objects and see if the algorithm “works.”
Does this sound reasonable?
It seems more reasonable than what’s been happening here, where most of the time is spent arguing about what Dembski meant. If Hannah and Sal really know what Dembski means, then they can prove it to us and the mathematical and biological sciences world right here and right now.
Let’s start with clear, unambiguous and FIXED definitions for the key terms.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 3:56 am
As to the next part…
None at all, if your criterion is the above. I’m not entirely sure what you’re doing in our course then though– here we don’t assume a priori that one side is right or wrong, and any decision to take someone less-than-seriously is based on less-than-serious arguments. Have you a critique for me of any of my arguments?
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 8:03 am
Let me know if you feel I’ve been to harsh with you. This though, is part of our ground rules
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 8:18 am
Sal:
Sal, I own NFL, I’ve read it, and I haven’t misrepresented Dembski one iota. Dembski says that conceptual information is “agent induced.” If you think I’ve misrepresented Dembski’s idea of conceptual information, then tell us how, but please stop making false accusations.
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 8:47 am
Comment by MartinM — July 24, 2006 @ 9:02 am
I’m not sure which is more irritating; the preview function or the lack thereof. In the first sentence of my post above, I’m quoting Hannah.
Comment by MartinM — July 24, 2006 @ 9:05 am
No, they don’t. If I emailed you the paper, would that help, or is it something about the pdf format?
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 9:06 am
Thanks, Hannah. Don’t worry about it - I’ll be able to access the paper from home, in a few hours.
Comment by MartinM — July 24, 2006 @ 9:19 am
PvM–
Your earlier post (#224) was stuck in the spam buffer, which is why I missed it; but now that it’s released:
I’m not angry :-), just somewhat lost as to the best way to respond to you. I understand it’s not nice to have your arguments torn to shreds, and I’d just as soon avoid accusations of anything. I’m only a student, and I want to give you the respect due to someone older than me. But what does one do when someone absolutely refuses to stop repeating the same empty statements that have been demonstrated to be fully and completely wrong, in the most basic mathematical sense? There are many places in this debate where reasonable people may disagree, but whether P(T|H)=1 in the general case is not one of them.
… so I ended up being stuck between two options: either you were deliberately misreperesenting or innocently misinterpreting. I chose to believe the latter, but that doesn’t make your position any less wrong.
It’s not an issue about having flaws, just an issue of being wrong. :) Moreover, it’s perfectly alright to “be wrong” about simple math every once in a while– I don’t know anyone who isn’t. Just most people admit it more readily when the problem has been demonstrated. And using bad math to attack someone else’s argument, and then repeating the invalid attack ad inifinitum, is… not very nice.
At any rate, for the reason this is an embarrasingly bad argument:
Read P(T|H) as the conditional probability of T given H, where T is the pattern and H the relevant chance hypthesis. Thus H inclues whatever chance/necessity mechanisms are known to be relevant.
As Dembski stated, P(T|H)=1 for a completely deterministic event. There aren’t that many completely deterministic events in the real world, and that is the only situation in which P(T|H)=1. P(T|H) =1 corresponds to the first node on the explanatory filter, where we attribute the event to necessity.
P(T|H) ≠ 1 for any situation where there is the slightest amount of indeterminency– i.e., most processes in the real world. If T=heads, a fair coin toss has P(T|H) = 1/2 . As you can see, P(T|H) gets small very quickly. This range corresponds to the second node on the explanatory filter.
One of the first things to note about probabilites: Extremely improbable things happen all the time. . For such an event, P(T|H) is extremely small. If the event is not specified, this does not entail design.
It should have been obvious from the above that complex specified information as a critereon for design is essentially a mathematical formulation of the explanatory filter. As such, the arguments in Design Inference (if they are valid) demonstrate that its presence entails design. Else not.
This is becoming rather long, and I need to stop to take care of some labwork, but I’ll put a response to the rest of this in a later comment….
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 10:12 am
Well, I evidently didn’t write a very clear post on analogies then, as Nick’s quote is almost identical to the claim (by Allen) that I was critiquing. Which is why I didn’t find it anymore convincing than I found his original argument.
I do not see the identity you do. The quote from MacNeill in your original post did not go into nearly as much detail as the quote from Judge Jones in explaining why the analogy is inappropriate. The quote from Jones, in my opinion, also directly rebutted (in advance) the complaints from Behe.
It appears you are defining “apparent design” in a different way then we are. The only thing we’re qualifiying as design is specified complexity, and natural selection doesn’t seem quite capable of producing that. S.C. is defined, after all, relative to Darwinian mechanisms in those cases where they are relevant.
Am I not suppose to notice that you switch from “apparent design” to just “design” betweens sentences 1 and 2? By “apparent design”, I mean what Dawkins does when he says things such as, “Evolution is very possibly not, in actual fact, always gradual. But it must be gradual when it is being used to explain the coming into existence of complicated, apparently designed objects, like eyes“; and what Behe means when he says, “Cellular machines and machines in our everyday world share a relevant property — their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts” (although, the word “purposeful” is ambiguous)
After that you invoke terms CSI and SC, whose definitions seem to be hotly debated. I can’t tell if natural selection, along with other mechanisms of naturalistic evolution, can produce SC unless you can unambiguously define SC.
Moreover, humans are capable of creating machines that can reproduce, so that isn’t a relevant disanalogy either. Perhaps some day we’ll “create life” in a test tube. Is there any reason inherent in your view of disanalogies for why we couldn’t?
This seems to be a complete red herring, so I will ignore it.
Comment by ivy privy — July 24, 2006 @ 10:40 am
Salvador:
You might want to check your math, Sal. If we remove the -log2 from both sides, we get
P(T_old_version|H) = M • N • φs(T_new_version) • P(T_new_version|H)
and we see that the left side is constrained to values [0..1], but the right side is not.
I don’t recall any T_old_version that takes into account M, N, and φs. I thought that those factors were accounted for in the GCEA, not in the specification T. But maybe my memory is failing me.
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 11:08 am
I think there’s some miscommunication regarding P(T|H) w.r.t. correct hypotheses. It’s true that for a correct hypothesis, P(T|H) for any event that exhibits specified complexity, the complexity will drop to near zero when the true hypothesis is found.. In other words, CSI disappears when the causal history is known.
But what if the correct hypothesis is design? In that case, Dembski allows the event to maintain its CSI by restricting the choice of H to material causes and assuming that design is immaterial. Then he points to the specified complexity as evidence that design is immaterial (not chance or necessity). Can someone explain to me how that isn’t begging the question?
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 11:25 am
Above post reformatted. I keep forgetting to escape the ‘<’.
I think there’s some miscommunication regarding P(T|H) w.r.t. correct hypotheses. It’s true that for a correct hypothesis, P(T|H) < 1 if H is stochastic. But it’s also true that stochastic processes can never exhibit SC, regardless of your choice of H (as long as it’s independent). The event will always be either unspecified or uncomplex.
If, on the other hand, H is not stochastic, then P(T|H) will be close to one. So we conclude that for any event that exhibits specified complexity, the complexity will drop to near zero when the true hypothesis is found.. In other words, CSI disappears when the causal history is known.
But what if the correct hypothesis is design? In that case, Dembski allows the event to maintain its CSI by restricting the choice of H to material causes and assuming that design is immaterial. Then he points to the specified complexity as evidence that design is immaterial (not chance or necessity). Can someone explain to me how that isn’t begging the question?
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 11:26 am
Roger Rabbit:In the Algorithm Room, there are an intelligent agent, and other resources produced by intelligent agents.
Who says that the algorithms are produced by intelligent agents? What if they’re just copied from nature, like, say, a hill-descending algorithm?
Roger Rabbitt: It says that certain processes mistakenly asserted by some to produce CSI, don’t produce complexity, hence don’t produce CSI.
Then he says: Whether the “black box” process is producing the CSI primarily or secondarily isn’t something that ID obsesses over.
So does an algorithmic black box produce apparent CSI (no real complexity), or real CSI secondarily? If you can give us a consistent answer, then you’re doing better than Dembski.
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
Well your examples didn’t have precise enough wording, but trying to anticipate what you meant I’ll give it a try.
But let me give P(T|H) for 500 fair coins:
Every outcome like:
H T T T ….. whatever
will have P(T|H) = 1 / 2^ 500
If T has 1 member (one outcome in the set) it’s cardinality is 1
If T has 2 members in the set it’s cardinality is 2
etc.
For single trial-context dependent pre-specified T where T is any given string:
P(T|H) = 1/ 2 ^500
For a T which contains 2 members,
P (T|H) = |T| 1 / 2^500 = 2 / 2^500
etc.
P ( All_tails| H ) = 1/2^500
P ( All_heads | H) = 1 /2^500
in general P ( singleton_uniform_T | H_uniform) = 1 /2 ^500
|T_either_all_heads_or_all_tails| = 2
P (either all heads or all tails | H) =
|T_either_all_heads_or_all_tails| P ( singleton_uniform_T | H_uniform) = 2/ 2^500
estimated for all Kolmogorov-compressible strings
P(T_est_k_compressible |H) =
|T_est_k_compressible| ( singleton_uniform_T | H_uniform)
where |T| is about 10^30, and which resembls Phi_s(T) for k_compressible strings.
= 10^30 / 2^500 = 1/ 10^120 approx
The last calculation has some similar form to the context INdependent case which Hannah was quoting
K-compressible (slang term on my part) strings (i.e. all heads) by definition are improbable outcomes of the stochastic process under consideration.
Thus, symmetries (k-compressible-phenomena) or convergences appearing in biology begins to suggest design because the pre-disposition of monomer configurations is very closely stochastic.
For example, a duplicated cell after mitosis, one suspects design. But of course the symmetry duplication is the result of the duplication machinery. So then we ask the probability of the duplicating process.
The duplication is dependent on the self-duplicating Turing machine. But thankfully, that machine is pre-specified and not subject to the Phi_s calculation, but even if it were it doesn’t matter….Trevors and Abel (not-IDers) did the work to show stochastic and deterministic mechanisms don’t make Turing machines. Therefore, by definition, life is designed.
Whether life is the result of intelligent agency is another, separate question, but as Dembski said, the definition of design does not rely on a doctrine of intelligent agency.
CSI is a definition, it is not a claim of specific agency, it is not a claim of intelligence. It is merely a statistical property, agnostic to intelligent agencies.
However, by analogy, intellience becomes a compelling possibilty for the origin of CSI. But no where in the defintion, does CSI required the object be authored by an intelligence!
See:
Perfect architectures which scream design
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 12:32 pm
Hannah
Are you claiming, now, too, that P(T|H)=1 for all known hypotheses?
No, I’m claiming that CSI is a worthless concept for biologists and Behe and Dembki’s “theories” are useless to the extent they are comprehensible.
It sounds to me like you are refusing to define for us in an unambiguous and fixed manner the key terms in this theory/algorithm which only you and Sal here claim to understand. Why is that Hannah? Why are you pretending that the burden is not on you and Sal to show this?
Again: the consense of scientists is that Behe and Dembski’s theories are garbage. Nobody in biology uses their theories. Nobody knows how! You challenge us to wade into the swamp and prove to YOU why these theories are bogus?!? When everytime we try to get you guys to stick to one definition for each of the key terms the theory/algorithm ends up imploding into triviality or worse?
That’s a bit strange, Hannah. Do you understand why?
One of the first things to note about probabilites: Extremely improbable things happen all the time.
Thanks for the admission. Just so we’re clear on the issues at play here: do complex objects “poof” into existence from nothing “all the time”?
For the record, I take Pim seriously on this subject, Hannah.
Re taking Pim seriously , Hannah wrote
I’m glad you do, because none of us are able to
Who are speaking on behalf of when you say “none of us”, Hannah?
Have you a critique for me of any of my arguments?
Yeah, I presented it above. Define YOUR terms according to YOUR concept of CSI in a clear fixed and permanent way. Then we can stop arguing about what Dembski said or what Behe said and focus on what YOU say, since you seem to believe there is a workable comprehensible way to apply Behe’s theories to biology (a belief that is held by virtually nobody in the scientific community).
Again I ask: why do you refuse to do this Hannah? The burden on you and Sal and your heroes is to persuade scientists that you are right. That is not done by waving your hands around concepts “written in jello” and claiming that your critics haven’t proven anything to YOU.
Define the terms in a fixed way and show us an example of how this algorithm may be applied to biology by scientists to achieve non-trivial results.
If this is too much to ask of your version of Behe’s theory or Dembski’s theory at the present time, just say so.
Comment by Michal Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 12:56 pm
Sal
For example, a duplicated cell after mitosis, one suspects design.
Really? If you say so.
But of course the symmetry duplication is the result of the duplication machinery. So then we ask the probability of the duplicating process.
What is the “probability” of mitosis, Sal? Please show your calculations, with the degree of uncertainty in each step, and provide and justify your assumptions in your case.
If you can’t do this, then admit that you can’t do this and explain why you brought mitosis up in the first place.
Comment by Michal Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 1:01 pm
Sal
However, by analogy, intellience becomes a compelling possibilty for the origin of CSI.
But it’s not the only possibility. If we are allowed to invoke unknown entities with unknown powers to explain a feature of an object, then we shouldn’t create false dichotomies when we do so. Such alternatives have been presented before to ID proponents but they are habitually ignored.
For example, rather then being “designed,” a seemingly designed object could have been excreted by an unknown entity which excretes such things without any thought whatsoever. Or the seemingly designed objects are rejected samples from a huge assortment of randomly created objects that function for some purpose, but are not ideal. The ideal complex objects end up on another planet, where life does not involve because everything is already perfect and carefully managed.
These ideas are as reasonable and consistent with the data as “intelligent design theory” and Behe/Dembski/Hannah/Sal’s “contributions” to scientists understanding of biology. Yet for some reason ID proponents ignore these alternatives. Evidently we aren’t allowed to discuss those reasons, so I’ll leave it at that for now.
Comment by Michal Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 1:13 pm
Salvador says: But no where in the defintion, does CSI required the object be authored by an intelligence!
Dembski says: CSI demands an intelligent cause.
Looks like you and Dembski need to get on the same page, Sal.
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 1:14 pm
Salvador bristles:
I wasn’t so much coming to the defense of PvM as pointing out that your counter-example is invalid. A probability distribution doesn’t need to be uniform: other distributions, including those where T has near one probability, are possible. The fact that Dembski wasn’t talking about these probabilities doesn’t matter: it is perfectly valid to discuss what happens to Dembski’s CSI and specificity values when P(H|T) is large.
You may want to be careful here, Sal: you are coming dangerously close to violating forum ground rules to the point where you can be permanently banned. I’m not “consciously misrepresenting” anyone: simply pointing out an obvious error you made. No need to get testy.
I’m not commenting on the book at all. However, given that Dembski’s latest paper on specification conveys all the relevant ideas on the topic, and given that I have read the paper, and given my background in the relevant subjects, I think I am at least as qualified to make comments about it as you are. Or does the fact that I haven’t put money into Dembski’s pocket exclude me from the debate?
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 24, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
Dembski made an induction about the implications of CSI in that quote, he was NOT makign a definition. You’re misrepresenting our words again secondclass. Pulling Matzke’s trick again, I see, eh?
Readers,
Note: design artifacts which evidence CSI can be created by machines, i.e. a cars, a computer chip.
The computer chip conforms to the statistical properties of CSI. CSI makes no claims of the manufacturing process of the object.
Also a printout from a printer hooked to a computer evidences CSI. It has the statistical properites. Whether or not intelligence was an immediate (proximal) or ultimate cause is a separate issue.
Regarding the cell, we have CSI artifacts being manufactured by other cells. That does NOT negate the design inference simply because a cellular machine made another cellular machine which evidences CSI. CSI is simply a statistical property, it does not say anything of intelligence being the cause. A mahcine can make another CSI bearing machine.
It does not, as a definition, as far as I know even rule out Darwinian evolvability, one has to create theorems from the defintions to rule out Darwinian evolvability, or create theorems like the conservation of CSI.
The definition of CSI is merely a statistical property. It can be used to argue ID. It can be used to critique evolution. It is however, at it’s root a statistical property.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 1:25 pm
I asked for a clear and fixed definition of CSI and any other terms that were necessary to understand why Behe/Dembski’s theories are useful and practical (and not bogus as nearly all scientists understand them to be). Here’s Sal’s response:
The definition of CSI is merely a statistical property.
Some definition, huh?
I stand by my previous conclusion: commenters here have laid waste to CSI and Behe/Dembski’s theories. It’s happened before, it’ll happen again.
Perhaps if Sal or Hannah could provide us with clear fixed unambiguous definitions for each key term in Behe/Dembski’s theory algorithm, we could put the discussion to rest. That assumes, of course, that the discussion is actually a discussion about the scientific merits of their theories and not just a metaphysical discussion about the existence of deities.
Comment by Michal Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 1:34 pm
Sal
Regarding the cell, we have CSI artifacts being manufactured by other cells.
Begging the question. Again.
Comment by Michal Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 1:35 pm
Salvador: Dembski made an induction about the implications of CSI in that quote, he was NOT makign a definition. You’re misrepresenting our words again secondclass.
You’re right. I misunderstood your point, and I apologize and retract my claim.
BTW, when have I misrepresented you before? Please point it out so I can apologize.
I do, however, find it interesting that for Dembski, CSI demands intelligence, but for you CSI merely makes intelligence a compelling possibility.
Whether CSI is defined in terms of intelligence depends on one’s definition of CSI. If the null hypothesis must include all unintelligent causes, then it’s defined in terms of intelligence. If the null hypothesis doesn’t have to include all unintelligent causes, then you can’t infer intelligence from CSI, in which case Dembski is wrong to state that CSI demands an intelligent cause.
Which is it?
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 1:43 pm
I suppose I’m to blame for starting it, though I thought I made a careful distinction between intentional and non-intentional misrepresentation, but, regardless, this has gone much too far.
In the future we’re going to assume that everyone is making a good faith effort to fairly represent whatever arguments they are attacking, that if they appear to be building strawmen at prodigious rates or are extremely confused that is the all there is to it– that they are extremely confused. In which case, if you think you’re not confused it’s your duty to make a good faith effort to un-confuse them, as respectfully as you can possibly manage. And I’ll try to do better as well.
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 1:43 pm
What CSI allows us to do is demonstrate naturalistic evolution is a self-contradicted theory of the form:
Which a contradiction, therefore untrue.
If Darwinian evolution is argued as a stochastic mechanism at it’s root (Random Variation guided by stochastically defined Natural Selection ), then it by definition will not create CSI. It effective asserts : E implies not-E. A non-sequitur.
One will complain that I said Natural Selection is stochastically defined mechanism. But if that objection is entered, then one must ask, well how is Natural Selection mathematically defined except to say, “anything but intelligence” and where is the descirption isn’t retrodictive or purely imaginary.
As Lewontin and Wagner demonstrated, it has essentially NO rigorous mathematical definition that can be generally applied, except in specialized canned instances like pesticde resistance, and even then, it’s a superflous property.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 1:45 pm
Michal Hubl,
We are using the defintion of specified complexity given in this paper, which is also linked in the course reading. All information needed to make an evaluation of it is there. It is not difficult to read. We are not asking you to buy any books in order to take part in discussion here. I am asking you to read the paper before you take any further part in this discussion.
It’s not so hard. After you’ve read it, if you still want definitions, I’ll give them to you.
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 1:45 pm
Hannah
We are using the defintion of specified complexity given in this paper, which is also linked in the course reading. All information needed to make an evaluation of it is there. It is not difficult to read.
Where is the complex specified information defined in a clear fixed unambiguous way, along with all the key sub-terms, Hannah?
Tell me the page number and line where Dembski provides this definition.
Why won’t you try to help us understand, Hannah? Why do you and Sal resist to strongly providing this basic information in black and white? Just give us the clear, fixed and unambiguous definitions. Use your own words, since you seem to understand this stuff so well.
Why are you so resistant to providing this information?
Comment by Michal Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 1:55 pm
Secondclass–
I’m not sure your analysis of Dembski’s position is correct. From The Design Inference, pg 9, in a discussion of the meaning of the word “design”:
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 2:03 pm
Hannah
I’m not sure your analysis of Dembski’s position is correct. From The Design Inference, pg 9, in a discussion of the meaning of the word “design”:
I thought everything was in that paper you linked me too, Hannah. I read it, by the way, (again). It’s not easy for me to understand how it works to do anything useful for biologists that they can’t do already.
I’d like those definitions you said you would provide for me now. Thanks!
Comment by Michal Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
Hannah, I didn’t analyze Dembski’s position. I merely quoted him.
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 2:14 pm
My apologies, Hannah. I will make a better effort to come under the flag of truce here at your weblog.
The dissusion here carries baggage from a 3-year war between the UDers and Pandas over many battlegrounds. I will make a greater effort to remain under the terms of truce here at your weblog.
Regards,
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 2:18 pm
Thanks for doing that. How many words per minute do you read, btw? :)
Alright. 264 comments makes for a rather long thread, though, so I’ll see about another post.
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 2:18 pm
That is incorrect, because what is under discussion in Dembski’s theories are improbable T’s. At issue is whether Debmksi asserted for an object which is a subset of T and evidences CSI, does P(T|H) = 1. Answer: no.
You are implying that I said P(T|H) never equals 1, I did not say that, I said not in general (which means formally in mathematics there exists a P(T|H) not equal 1), and certainly not the P(T|H) that are improbable.
Yes it does, because we are talking about the definition of CSI, not whether we can concoct some example where P(T|H) = 1.
We are not looking for P(T|H) = 1. That is not part of the definition in qestion.
You’re discussion is therefore irrelevant and a total distraction and little to do with the definition under consideration.
At issue is whether P(T|H) =1 is anywhere in Dembski’s definition of T which identify CSI, or whether it even is correct to attribute P(T|H) = 1 as his claim for CSI.
You’re arguing an irrelevant point.
Thus in your reading of Dembski, does P(T|H) =1 for objects evidencing his definition of CSI? Yes or no?
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
Sal, remember that PvM was talking about the correct hypothesis, not just any old null hypothesis.
If the event exhibits CSI, and H is the correct hypothesis, then P(T|H) is indeed close to 1. See comment #247.
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 2:59 pm
Secondclass,
Whatever PvM means what is at issue is what Dembski means, not even primarily whether Dembski is right, but simply what he means.
P(T|H) is the probability that T is the outcome and H is the correct hypothesis. At some point making English language approximations fail. That is what Dembski means, and that is consistent with his convention in The Design Inference (except he uses P(E|H) not P(T|H). )
So when push came to shove, I went to the far more formal phrasing where H induces a probability measure P(•|H), and where by definition P(T|H) must be very low if it identifies CSI. Dembski is not doing anything that isn’t beyond well-accepted practices and meanings of mathematical conceptions of what P(T|H) represents. I gave two links to how P(T|H) is used, and they were consistent with Dembski.
I gave even sample calculations about to calculate P(T|H). In general P(T|H) = 1 in Dembski’s definitions of CSI, where T identifies objects evidencing CSI.
P(T|H) does not equal 1 or is close to 1. Do you agree or disagree?
Sal
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 3:59 pm
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 4:01 pm
Sorry,
I don’t have preview to check what I wrote anymore.
P(T|H) does NOT equal 1 in Dembski’s definitions.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 4:03 pm
Salvador:
It depends on H.
Sal, I’m trying to clear up a miscommunication. Your calculations are for H_uniform, which is obviously a false hypothesis for the values of T that you mentioned. PvM, on the other hand, is talking about the correct hypothesis.
You can’t calculate SC from just H_uniform; you have to take into account all known possible causes. The problem is that as our knowledge increases, our set of hypotheses gets closer and closer to including the correct hypothesis, and the complexity drops. Once we know the true cause, the complexity drops to near zero.
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
Salvador:
First, reading back over what you wrote, it appears that I was too hasty to accuse you of making an error, and for that I apologize. You wrote:
I stated that the above is only true if H induces a uniform probability measure of Omega. We both agree that is correct: however, I missed your description of the coin as “fair”. With that in mind, it is easy to see that you by “an appropriate probability measure” you must have meant the uniform distribution. I am sorry I missed your intent; needless to say, my “correction” was completely unnecessary.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled arguments:
The mathematical definition of CSI is that it is a measurable propery of the event in question, computed by the function -log_2(M*N*Phi_S(T)*P(T|H)). It is perfectly valid to ask what happens to this measure when P(T|H) is large - CSI becomes negative. Partly, that is because Dembski’s probability approximations break down for large values of P(T|H), while still remaining valid for small values. In part, however, this breakdown may stem from problems inherent in defining the Phi_S(T) function, and those problems may not be resolvable. Personally, I see Phi_S(T) as by far the more problematic part of the CSI formula than P(T|H), even though the latter probability cannot be meaningfully assessed (and may not be assessible in principle) for complex physical and biological phenomena.
Anyhow, confining P(T|H) to small values when discussing biological phenomena is equivalent to deciding a priori that certain classes of events (remember, T may correspond to combinatorially large composite events of which the currenty evolutionary context is only one possibility) are extraordinarily improbable under the null hypothesis of “naturalistic” biological evolution. I see no reason to adapt this stance: Dembski certainly fails to give one.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 24, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
Sal
we are talking about the definition of CSI
Instead of “talking about the definition”, Sal, why not just give us the definition, in black and white, in fixed unambiguous terms, where each sub-term is also clearly defined in a fixed and clear manner.
What is the problem? Why do you refuse to do this? Why do you continually avoid doing this?
Comment by Michal Hubl — July 24, 2006 @ 4:25 pm
But with respect to sets T which identify CSI, in Dembski’s definition, irrespective of the exact details of H( be it uniform or non-uniform), can
Answer: No.
It is not a matter whether he is right or wrong, it is a matter of whether that was what he was trying to say.
We may not know the true cause, or a mathematical description of the evolution via the true cause.
What is in question is whether certain hypotheses are at least not self-contradictory, namely, having the form: “E implies not-E” (not-E sounds like naughty).
CSI merely identifies objects not describable by stochastic or purely deterministic processes. It makes no mention of the causes characterizing that unknown region of “not stochastic, not deterministic”.
The motivation behind CSI was to show Darwinian evolution has the form of a statement:
“E implies not-E”.
CSI’s effectiveness in recognizing intelligent activity is a separate but related issue.
PS
Thanks for tolerating my typos, my hands operate at a far lower bit-rate than my thought processes….
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 4:35 pm
Your post is up, Michal.
Comment by Hannah — July 24, 2006 @ 4:48 pm
Sal, if a given H yields a high SC, then P(T|H) is low for that choice of H, and that hypothesis is falsified. I think we’re in agreement on that.
But an SC calculation based on a single null hypothesis isn’t very useful. To determine the SC of event, we have calculate it for all null hypotheses.
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 5:06 pm
Salvador writes:
Sal, this is, frankly, mind-bogglingly wrong. The only thing that is “random with respect to fitness” is mutation itself, and not its outcome. The outcome is dictated by the environment of the organism that undergoes mutation in a quasi-deterministic fashion. If I drop a ball from atop a building then, ceteris parabis, there is nothing random about the direction in which it is going to go. Likewise, if a bacterium in the process of mitosis sustains a “random” mutation that disables a key protein involved in DNA->RNA transcription, there is nothing random about the fate of the progeny of such a bacterium.
Heck, even mutations themselves do not occur uniformly at random: the frequency of each type mutation is dictated by the biochemical mechanisms involved in replication and a slew of environmental factors. Transitions are more common than transversions, point mutations are more prevalent than indels, some regions of DNA are much more likely to undergo mutation than other, e.t.c. These considerations alone should tell that a uniform distribution a realistic hypothesis, even if you ignore the potentially enormous biasing effect of selection entirely.
If one were to come up with a probability distribution that could be used to assess the probability of evolving the present level of biodiversity and biological complexity, this distribution would need to incorporate nearly infinite amounts of information going billions of years back, including the ever-changing environmental factors, the ever-changing probability distributions of evolving all past levels of biodiversity, and the interplay of all ever-changing selective pressures on organisms in all past and present evolutionary contexts. And that’s just for starters. The idea that such an insanely complex problem can be modelled by a series of random coin tosses is … well, I’ll just stick to the forum rules and avoid ad-hominem. ;)
For starters, you are welcome to address my comments about the displacement theorem in post #4 of this thread. But, even if we were to concede that Dembski’s mathematical formulation is correct, that his math has anything to do with “Intelligence” as opposed to “input from external sources” (e.g. the physical environment), and that the whole abstract exercise has some remote connection to the real world, then it would still be perfectly consistent with Darwinian evolution. Darwinian evolution only claims that the driving force behind the emergence of biological novelty is random variation being acted upon by environmental pressures resulting in differentiated reproductive success. It is apathetically agnostic as to who or what, if anything, set the whole process into motion.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 24, 2006 @ 5:15 pm
Self-correction for the above post:
Bacteria reproduce not by mitosis, but by process called binary fission. The term “mitosis” is reserved for eukaryotic cells possessing a nucleus. Sorry for the confusion.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 24, 2006 @ 5:23 pm
Salvador:
Where can I find support for that accusation?
Comment by secondclass — July 24, 2006 @ 5:32 pm
The idea though was to start somewhere. The issue with the Displacement Theorem is to examine the possibility of ALL possible probability measures and the reasonableness that Blind forces can pick out at random an appropriate probability measure P induced by some arbitrary H.
If it can be shown that a random pick of a distribution is no better than uniform distribution, then the simple definition of CSI holds in general for resisting the space of all possible Null Stochastic Hypotheses.
Recall, the overriding principle for Darwinian evolution is natural selection can have no foresight, thus any propensity to pick optimal probability measures is contrary to the fundamental tenets of Darwinian evoltution.
Furthermore, the other thing is we can resort to physics and chemistry to some extent to give us probability distributions. For example, with a coin, we don’t need perfect knowledge to reasonably model it with a 50/50 distribution. Chemistry can yield similar insights.
In the absence of knowledge, one can suggest a distribution and try to carry it to it’s logical end. Avida for example asserts a selective force to create complexity has 100% chance of existence. A user merely inputs parameters in a configuration file, and shazam, selection is there, P(T|H) =1 (so to speak) for selection existing. I point out such liberties violate the spirit of Blind Watchmaking as the short circuit the very reasonable question should P(T|H) = 1 in the first place!
See: www.designinference.com
In the designinference website, Dembski has since cleaned up some references to “Shallit, the man the myth the maniac.” One does not see the formerely inflammatory langauge and details of the past history there any more.
However, Shallit’s name is still on Dembski’s The Design Inference.
Dembski’s book was published 1998, about 10 or 11 years later.
You can ask Jeff if he was happy to see his name on that book with Dembski acknowleging him for assisting in it’s development (albeit indirectly). Jeff has a weblog, and if he posts on Dembski sometime, you might ask the question.
My phrase, “he went nuts” was meaning he was angry, and upset, or displeased.
I don’t know when the relationship between the two broke down, and I’m not implying that’s what started it all.
Some of the net materials on their history together have been removed, thus I can’t link to the data now even if it had been posted. If it bothers you that much that I said “he went nuts.” I withdraw it. However, it was apparent the two got along many years ago, and that they no longer do today.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 24, 2006 @ 6:44 pm
Someone pointed out to me that my work was being discussed in this forum.
I don’t have the time, or desire, to address all the misconceptions, misunderstandings, and misrepresentations that Mr. Cordova is perpetrating about me and my work in this forum. I think I have already done most of that elsewhere.
However, I will correct Mr. Cordova’s misrepresentation about my relationship with William Dembski.
William Dembski tells me he sat in on one of my classes in Algorithmic Number Theory when I taught at the University of Chicago. However, I have only the vaguest memory of him from those days. I cannot even remember if he simply sat in on the class, or took it for credit. I certainly did not interact with him in any substantive way, so saying I “helped Dembski get his Ph. D.” is quite misleading.
It is also quite misleading to say that I “went nuts” when Dembski thanked me in his book, The Design Inference. I merely asked Dr. Dembski in an e-mail to remove my name from all future editions of the book. I don’t think it was an unreasonable request, and I don’t actually know whether the request was ever complied with.
Mr. Cordova is avid and voluble, but I would caution everyone in this forum that when he speaks with the voice of authority about events he did not witness first-hand, he is not always reliable.
Regards to everyone in this class. I hope you are enjoying it.
Comment by Jeffrey Shallit — July 24, 2006 @ 9:44 pm
In comment #274 Leonid Meyerguz wrote:
It’s very interesting that you should conclude this, as this was precisely the same conclusion that our seminar reached last Wednesday when considering Dembski’s 2005 paper on specification. Furthermore, we concluded this on essentially the same grounds.
What this says to me is that it is clearly premature to attempt to come to any conclusions about the existence of “intelligent design” in nature, as the relevant data for calculating any value of chi are quite literally unavailable at present. Furthermore, I am not sanguine about their becoming available, in the same way that I am not sanguine about a final resolution of the question of the origin of life from abiotic materials. As I pointed out in class, the “fossil” evidence of this event is not only missing, it is almost certainly “not available.” All we will ever have is indirect inference, based on laboratory simulations that may not bear more than a passing resemblance to conditions that pertained on the early Earth.
Therefore, to assert on the basis of such flimsy evidence that there currently exists solid evidence for the existence of “intelligent design” in nature (much less an “intelligent designer”) is not only premature in the extreme, it immediately raises the question of motive. Why push such an unfinished and unsupported hypothesis, especially at the level of the public schools?
While I admire Dembski’s determination, I question his ability to be objective about the implications of his mathematical models. In the question, as in all questions of the applicability of mathematical models, the real test is empirical verification, and on that basis I find his speculations (along with those of Michael Behe) both unconvincing and lacking in objective (empirical) support.
Comment by Allen MacNeill — July 24, 2006 @ 11:51 pm
Sal: Are you claiming, now, too, that P(T|H)=1 for all known hypotheses?
I never made that claim either Sal. Let’s be careful how we represent other people’s viewpoints.
Comment by PvM — July 25, 2006 @ 1:33 am
Leonid wrote:
Leonid, thanks for the information. I guess they just assume you’re familiar with the use of the term.
.Leonid:
Well, that’s kind of the drift I got from it, but I would have preferred a more elaborated definition. I’m supposing that “max” means the largest of the two entities in brackets; in other words, if n> y, then y-n is negative, and you substitute in “0” (zero). But again, I guess they just assume you’re familiar with the terminology.
From the equation they’ve written on page 47, it would appear that SAI(E)= n-C(E); and it would also appear that “n” here corresponds to |y| , and C(E) to “n” (the minimal length of C(E)).
But I’m having a real problem with the ‘adding’ of Eq’ns (1) and (2) since equation (1) uses Dembski’s definition of “complexity”, and equation (2) appears to be using Kolmogorov’s definition of “complexity”. Isn’t that mixing ‘apples and oranges’?
I still don’t understand the derivation of equation (2). It looks like you just take the bit size of program P, and add to it some kind of ‘probability’ of E in T. If that’s the case, then it appears that SAI is being defined in terms of Kolmogorov theory, while C(E) is being defined in a kind of Dembski/Kolmogorov fashion. Could you elaborate more on this for me?
secondclass:
Well, I think |y|-n is the definition of SAI(y). The “max” notation, as I noted above, just means you use “0” for SAI when |y|-n is negative. But it’s clumsy notation, and should have been better explained.
I await your informed reply.
secondclass:
We should change your name to “noclass”. Why don’t you hold your tongue a little bit?
Here’s a quote from NFL: “For information measures, degree of complication is measured in bits. Given an event A of probability P(A), I(A)= - log(2)P(A) measures the average number of bits required to specify an event with that probability. We there fore speak of the “complexity of information” and say that the complexity of information increase as I(A) increases (or, correspondingly, as P(A) decreases). We also speak of “simple” and “complex” information according to whether I(A) signifies few or many bits of information.” (p. 140)
On page 142, Dembski writes: “Moreover, if T also has high complexity (or correspondingly small probability…), then (T,E) constitutes complex specified information or CSI.”
So, Shallit and Elsberry erred in the construction of their sentence, at the very least, and possibly in the construction of their thought. Their sentence introducing Equation (1) should thusly read: “Then, following Dembski, the number of bits I of CSI in T is given by: …..and then, Equation (1). So, equation (1) is about T, and equation (2) is about E. Further, the log part of equation (2) looks to me like we’re calculating the probability of E relative to T. It seems odd that in a Kolmogorov equation for the complexity of E we don’t find E, but instead the log of #T. To me, this only adds further confusion to what they’re doing. Again, maybe somebody can add some clarity here. I just want some answers to these pecularities.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 25, 2006 @ 10:29 am
Darwinists Fail to Co-opt Augustine for Proselytism
For some reason Cornell’s Evolution and Design blog will not allow me to post there. I’ve never posted there before so I don’t know if it is this post or just my IP that it doesn’t like. In any case here is my rebuttal to PvM and nmatzke.
PvM …
Trackback by Teleological Blog — July 25, 2006 @ 11:34 am
Lino, my response was harsh and I apologize. But the fact is that your claims that “neither Shallit nor Elsberry understand what CSI is” and that they are guilty of a “gross error in understanding” are completely unfounded. Why not wait until you understand the paper before passing judgement on the authors’ level of understanding?
In Dembski’s old formulation, if an event exhibits CSI, then the amount of CSI is the number of bits in T. His more recent definition of specified complexity is different, but it’s still a function of T rather than E (see page 24 of this paper). As E&S state in the preceding paragraph, E is specified by T, and we have to take into account the probability of all events that are similarly specified.
Following Dembski’s frequent practice, E&S assume that the set T is selected from a uniform distribution of strings that comprise omega. Thus, P(T) is #T/#omega, and I is -log2(#T/#omega). So if the event exhibits CSI, then the amount of CSI is I = -log(#T/#omega).
Equation 2 follows from the definition of Kolmogorov complexity. If T is a compressed version of E, then C(E) is <= the number of bits in T plus some programming overhead.
I apologize again for my snarkiness. Thankfully, my vacation starts tomorrow and I’ll probably be a much nicer person when I get back.
Comment by secondclass — July 25, 2006 @ 12:10 pm
Teleological: For some reason Cornell’s Evolution and Design blog will not allow me to post there. I’ve never posted there before so I don’t know if it is this post or just my IP that it doesn’t like. In any case here is my rebuttal to PvM and nmatzke.
Not much of a rebuttal, mostly unsupported assertions about what ID has done. My challenge is simple: Support your claims that such follows by necessity from the basic premises of ID.
Define your premises..
Ryan Nichols and others have done so and shown how ID remains scientifically vacuous.
Comment by PvM — July 25, 2006 @ 2:08 pm
Comment by teleologist — July 25, 2006 @ 2:59 pm
secondclass:
Thank you for the tone of your reply. It’s much appreciated. I now propose we call you “firstclass”.
But, again, there’s a misunderstanding at play here.
Here’the relevant quotes form Dembski in my latest post (caught for over two days in the ‘moderation’ filter):“For information measures, degree of complication is measured in bits. Given an event A of probability P(A), I(A)= - log(2)P(A) measures the average number of bits required to specify an event with that probability.”
So, #T/#Omega is simply, as you point out, the probability of T in the space Omega. So, the equation that E&S use is in the form of what Dembski calls the “complexity of information”. Dembski does not call it CSI. That’s where I was having a problem.
Here’s Dembski’s other quote from NFL (142):
CSI is neither T alone, nor E alone. It is the coincidence of these two “events”, if you will.
second(first)class:
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 25, 2006 @ 3:17 pm
I’m sorry about the last post. I saved it on Word before I posted it. I don’t know why it didn’t end the blockquote; I had the proper ending for it. Hope you can make sense of it.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 25, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
The original post is missing an important quote, and is just too messed up to let it stand as is. I found a missing angled bracket. I forgot to hit the shift key. Can’t we go back to the preveiw function?secondclass:
Thank you for the tone of your reply. It’s much appreciated. I now propose we call you “firstclass”.
But, again, there’s a misunderstanding at play here.
Here’the relevant quotes form Dembski in my latest post (caught for over two days in the ‘moderation’ filter):“For information measures, degree of complication is measured in bits. Given an event A of probability P(A), I(A)= - log(2)P(A) measures the average number of bits required to specify an event with that probability.”
So, #T/#Omega is simply, as you point out, the probability of T in the space Omega. So, the equation that E&S use is in the form of what Dembski calls the “complexity of information”. Dembski does not call it CSI. That’s where I was having a problem.
Here’s Dembski’s other quote from NFL (142): “Moreover, if T also has high complexity (or correspondingly small probability…), then (T,E) constitutes complex specified information or CSI.”
CSI is neither T alone, nor E alone. It is the coincidence of these two “events”, if you will.
second(first)class:
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 25, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
This is so frustrating!!! The problem was that in secondclss’s quote there was a angled bracket in there by mistake. Egads. Bring back the preview function, puuuuhlease!!.
second(first)class:
Well, I agree with your definition. But where I’m having the problem is with the measure of E that E&S use in their definition of C(E). It’s part of an index of the “lexicographically-ordered list of T.” When you look at Equation (2), log(base2)(#T), as I try to figure it out, comes from them saying that the P (probability) of E in terms of bits is: -log(bs2)(1/#T). That is, the probability of E, since it occurs only once in T (maybe their meaning of ’specified’), is 1/#T. -log(bs2)(1/T) becomes, then, (positive)log(bs2)(#T). But this is Dembski’s formula for “measure of complexity”, and not Kolmogorov’s. If they were going to use a Kolmogorov version of complexity in a consistent way, then they would have to look at the actual bit string of E, and then compress it with a program and input. You say that T is a “compressed version of E”. But, in reality, T is a set of bit strings of length-n in Omega. And E&S say that “E is specified by the target T”, but I don’t think they mean that T and E are interchangeable. Further, that is not how CSI works, I don’t believe. In NFL, the visual accompaniment of CSI shows T to be a subset of probability space, with E being ’specified’ within T. This corresponds to E&S’s verbal description of E being part of the “index” of T. Likewise, if T were a ’specification’ of E, and Equation (2) simply the Kolmogorov complexity of E, then it should look something like this: C(E)=|P|+log(bs2)(E). I’ll put it another way: C(E), as E&S define it, represents a mimimal length of specifying E. It doesn’t seem to make sense to include every bit string in T in the ‘minimal’ description of E.
But, again, even if some kind of understanding of Equation (2) be reached, it seems odd to want to ‘add’ a Kolmogorovian “measure of complexity” with a Dembskian “measure of complexity”. Yes, you’re adding equalities; but they’re equalities in different mathematical spaces. At least that’ what my mind tells me.
Sal, do you have any comments about this?
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 25, 2006 @ 3:32 pm
Lino wrote:
No problem: glad I could clear things up!
You’re absolutely correct here. The max notation however is very common in mathematics and computer science, and since Shallit and Elseberry aim this part of the paper primarily at a mathematical audience, I don’t think they can be faulted for using conventional notation.
Again, absolutely right. Here, they change the meaning of the variable n between the two equations: it’s still relatively easy to follow, but in general, but it always irks me to see something like this. Probably, my only gripe with the entire appendix.
Not quite. Both I and C(E) are represent numbers of bits, so adding them is perfectly valid. The reason the addition is carried out is to obtain a bound on the quantity I-|P| (in the unnumbered equation below), which corresponds almost exactly to the way Dembski computes specified complexity. To use Dembki’s terminology, I-|P| multiplies probability by “specificational resources” to obtain “specificity”. (Remember that multiplication turns into addition on a logarithmic scale.) To go into a bit more detail, check out the formula for specificity on page 18 of Dembski’s specification paper. The formulat is:
Sigma = -log_2(Phi_S(T) * P(T|H)) = -log_2(P(T|H)) - log_2(Phi_S(T))
But -log_2(P(T|H)) is exactly S&E’s I under the null hypothesis of uniform probability. Dembski’s definition of Phi_S(T) is complicated and unwieldy - see my posts #35 and #64 in the “Specified Complexity” thread - but essentially it can be shown that the logarithm of the upper bound on Phi_S(T) is just the length of the shortest description of T, which is captured exactly by |P|. (i.e. log_2(Phi_S(T)) = |P|). So, substituting I for -log_2(P(T|H)) and |P| for log_2(Phi_S(T)), we recover Dembki’s specificity formula by adding equations (1) and (2) in Shallit’s Paper:
Sigma = I - |P|.
Note that the complete definition of specified complexity also includes “replicational” resources M*N, so the complete log-expanded formula (see Dembski, p. 21) is given by
Chi = -log2(P(T|H)) - log_2(Phi_S(T)) - log_2(M) - log2(N).
However, since M and N are just fixed constants greater than 1, Chi
I await your informed reply.
I hope you are not too disappointed. :)
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 25, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
Lino:
I just posted a long reply to your queries above which most likely got stuck in the SPAM filter - I’ll resubmit if it dies along the way. However, for now let me briefly address a specific comment you make:
S&E are not doing that. What they are doing through C(E) is giving us a way to uniquely retrieve the event E from the event superset T that Dembski describes as a “pattern”. Suppose there is a program P, of length |P|, that can generate all the outcomes consistent with the event T (i.e. all elements of T). How can we then uniquely identify E among the elements of T? Well, we can number all the elements of T based on some ordering (e.g. lexicographic), and just remember E’s number. There are #T elements in T, so we need at most log2(#T) bits of information to store E’s number. Thus, to fully specify E given a program that computes T, we will need |P|+log2(#T) additional bits of information: we can write this C(E | P,T) = |P| + log2(T). (Here, C(E | P,T) means “Kolmogorov-complexity of E given program P and set T). Of course, there may be shorter programs out there that fully specify E, but at least we can bound K-complexity from above:
that is, C(E) <= C(E | P,T) = |P| + log2(#T). In short, S&E do not include every bit string in T in the minimal description of E: the only additional info they include is E’s index into T.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 25, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
Thank you Leonid. My explanation of equation 2 was just plain wrong, as T is a lossy compression. The information to identify T is found in P, and the further information to identify E within T is found in the index, which is log2(#T) bits long.
Comment by secondclass — July 25, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
Or a better way to state it is that P is a lossless compression of T and a lossy compression of E.
Comment by secondclass — July 25, 2006 @ 5:22 pm
secondclass writes:
Bingo! That is exactly correct.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 25, 2006 @ 7:11 pm
Thanks, Leonid, for your response. It was helpful.
But the mathematics are still bothering me.
In response to my saying that S&E were mixing ‘apples and oranges’, you said:
The problem I have here is that in the space we’re dealing with, they’re all strings n-bits long. That’s the length of E. To get a “lexicographic order” of T seems to require identifying all the elements and then ‘numbering’ them in some way. This, likely involves a program, of some bit-length. Then you have another program meant to recognize E when it shows up. And then, I suppose, there’s another program to ‘compress’ E. But all of this supposes that E has been identified. Well, why not just run the program “PRINT E”. E is n-bits long, but that seems like it has to be lot shorter than #T if “n” is of any size at all. Or, why not just simply identify E, and then compress it. That surely has to be the minimal length. Why involve the cardinality of T. Why is that necessary, especially if you’re trying to define something of minimal length?
I just can’t visualize how their definition of C(E) is a minimal length. Maybe you can further clarify.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 26, 2006 @ 1:30 am
Here’s a simple example: Suppose n=1000 and E is 00000000…00000000101. Then T can be the set of all strings that start with 997 0’s (which means that #T=8 and log2(#T)=3), and P can be a program that loops through the first 997 bits making sure that they’re all 0. If P can be encoded in, say, 100 bits, then equation 2 tells us that C(E) <= 100 + 3.
Not sure if that helps.
Comment by secondclass — July 26, 2006 @ 11:24 am
second(reallyfirst)class wrote
:
Thanks. I see that you’re saying that S&E are effectively setting an “upper bound” for C(E). The way you presented it is helpful.
But you’ve got me thinking now, and I think I can pinpoint my concern.
In your example, #T was equal to 8. That means that I= 1000-3=997. And you had P as 100. Thus the SAI as S&E define it is equal to 997-100=897.
But now let’s define T in a different way. Let T be a random string of 0’s and 1’s out until the last three positions (N.B., in your example you had all 0’s out to the last three positions). Now since T is composed of identical, basically random strings out to the last three places of a thousand-long string, then basically these strings can’t be ‘compressed’. So now P probably looks like this: “Print 01001101001011100101011100101010…..010xxx” where “xxx” is 000,001,011,…111 (in other words, the 8 combinations of T within which E is to be found) and the first 997 positions identically the same for each of these 8 permutations. That means that P is at least 997 bits long. Thus in this instance SAI=I-P=997-997=0.
So, in your example SAI is 897, and in the example I’m giving, it is 0. Now, if we look at I as Dembski uses it, in both cases #Omega is the same (2^n), and #T is the same (i.e., 2^3=8). But Shallit and Elsberry are claiming that SAI is a measure of information along the same as that of CSI. Yet, in both cases I=8 (Dembskian complexity) while in the SAI case (semi-Kolmogorov [my term]) SAI is first 897 and then 0. This is a huge difference while in Dembski’s case it stays exactly the same. Maybe you can now see my difficulties. This is probably the best I can do at explaining my discomfort with S&E’s definition of SAI.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 26, 2006 @ 1:58 pm
I just made a not too lengthy post which I think ended up in the ‘moderation filter’. I’m guessing that it has to do with the name of a poster. I think it will have to be “secondklass” from now on, else we’ll always be fighting the filter.
Cheers!
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 26, 2006 @ 2:03 pm
Lino, good question. I believe that, using Dembski’s approach, we would say that your T is not a valid specification, and therefore conclude that E does not exhibit CSI.
According to E&S, one of the advantages of their approach is that we don’t have to answer the nebulous question of whether T is a valid specification or not.
Comment by secondclass — July 26, 2006 @ 3:24 pm
secondklass (please note my comment on #303)I believe that, using Dembski’s approach, we would say that your T is not a valid specification, and therefore conclude that E does not exhibit CSI.
But I don’t think T is the ’specification’; it’s simply a subset of Omega, while E, an element of T would be the ’specificiation’. I think the way that Dembski would handle this would be by saying that the fact that we can locate E, a ’specified’ pattern in the subset T of all possible such patterns, i.e., Omega, means that the “measure of complexity” (i.e., -log_2(#T/#Omega)) is sufficiently high to rule out the chance hypothesis, H, while at the same time containing the ’specified’ element E. Thus (T,E) represents CSI. Therefore, T is no more than a kind of subclass within the overall class defined by Omega, and I don’t think that using Dembski’s approach or S&E’s approach makes a difference in isolating T. I guess what I’m saying is that if T cannot be isolated/identified within Omega, then how can you calculate the log_2(#T) in Equation (2)? I think this same comment applies to the second part of your post as well. What do you thinkabout all this? Interested in your take.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 26, 2006 @ 4:12 pm
Lino, to chime in briefly:
The problem is that while the “I” in Dembski’s definition stays the same, the “CS” part changes drastically between your two examples. Again, I would recommend reading his latest paper, which, according to Dembski himself, is a clarification of his previous attempts to formulate CSI. As I argue above, the definition of specificity given by Dembski on page 18 corresponds almost identical to S&E’s “I - |P|”. To give a brief answer to your question, the CSI under Dembski’s formulation will change drastically between your two examples, because in the former case, Phi_S(T) will be small, while in the latter case Phi_S(T) will be very, very large. Just keep in mind that |P| corresponds to log_2(Phi_S(T)).
Hope this clarifies things.
PS: Also keep in mind that I - |P| is a lower bound on SAI(E), and not equal to SAI(E).
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 26, 2006 @ 4:42 pm
Thanks for the clarification, Leonid. My previous comment was based on Dembski’s old approach, as described in NFL. He used to distinguish between valid specifications and fabrications by imposing criteria such as detachability or simplicity. But now he includes his “specificational resources” cost directly in the definition of SC, which accomplishes the same thing.
Dembski consistently uses T to denote the specification, or something related to the spec like the conceptual event in which an agent identifies the spec, or the composite event in which the spec is manifest. In the case of uniform probability, the number of bits in T indicates the probability of the composite event.
Comment by secondclass — July 26, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
Our sincerest apologies for the “sensitivity” of the spaminator for these comments. As some of you have noticed, it seems to have a decided dislike for anything that looks remotely like “aitch-tee-em-ell” (there, I even had to spell it, or this post would have been eaten as well). The reason, of course, is that many spambots now crawl comment lists like this one and insert spamcode. To avoid this, the spaminator automagically deletes anything that looks like code, including a surprisingly large selection of mathematical symbols, such as “greater than” and “less than”.
Please be assured that your posts are not getting shunted into the moderation queue…they don’t even make it that far, they just disappear. Hannah and I have been working on this problem, but there may not be a “perfect” fix so long as spambots are able to dump their nasty little loads wherever a website allows “aitch-tee-em-ell” in posts and comments.
Comment by Allen MacNeill — July 26, 2006 @ 5:19 pm
Leonid:
I have a hard time seeing it that way. Since I is defined as the “measure of complexity” of the information, my way of splitting up CSI would be into CI, represented by T, and S, represented by E. That makes the most sense to me.
Even as you state it, I don’t see how the CS changes as E changes from being compressible to the situation where it is incompressible. In each case it seems like we’re dealing with the subset T whose elements have some kind of specification (whether compressible or incompressible) and, in both cases, the very same ‘cardinality’. It is the cardinality of T, not the specification of the elements in T, relative to the cardinality of Omega that, following Dembski’s approach, determines the ‘complexity’ of the information, and hence I. Indeed, P radically changes, and, hence, I-|P|. But this is entirely due to the ability to compress E, the specification. But in my way of thinking, a specification is simply a specification. Why should it matter whether it is compressible or not? I don’t see how that affects its overall probabiiity of occurring. That’s why I don’t see the reason for mixing “apples and oranges.”
As to Dembski’s “specification” paper, I think I’ve read that twice already. But it was over a year ago, which basically means I can recall very little of it. But Phi_s, as I’m recalling, was what I considered a sort of far out notion. But I see now that Dembski decided to include it in reaction to the criticisms in S&E’s paper. The long and the short of PHi_s
(again, from what I can recall) is that he’s simply left enough room in his formulation to take into account all the ’specificational resources’ that can exist in our world. In other words, let’s diminish the probability by a factor equivalent to all the words and word combinations that are possible. He therefore is increasing P(T|H) by the factor Phi_s. As I see it, anyway, Dembski is no longer considering -log_2(#T/#Omega), but rather -log_2([#T x Phi_s]/#Omega). This has the effect, then, of lowering the “measure of complexity”, I. You’re identifying this reduction by Phi_s with |P|; that’s fine, but I don’t see how that takes away from the fact that the overall inclusion of Phi_s is to make the ‘design infernece’ based on CSI more conservative. Dembski also includes all possible “replicational resources” to make his overall calculation even more ‘conservative’; but based on the foregoing, that would like now interpreting this as I-|P|- R, and R has no correspondence to ’specification’, it’s just an ‘informational’ input which requires I to do less.
I better stop here and get some feedback from you.
Comment by Lino D\'Ischia — July 26, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
Lino:
I think we need to differentiate between Dembski’s old CSI and his new specified complexity. In his old approach, given an event, you would use Dembski’s Generic Chance Elimination Argument (which factors in probabilistic resources) to identify a pattern and determine whether the pattern constitutes CSI. But now he has folded the probabilistic resources into the definition of SC.
Comment by secondclass — July 26, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
secondklass: Thanks. I’ll take a look at that (GCEA).
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 26, 2006 @ 9:13 pm
Lino writes:
Actually, I think you are right except when you say that “S” - specificity - is represented by E. In Dembki’s new formulation, T now represents both “CI” and “S”. E is merely a singleton subset of T (i.e. a single outcome in T). Through the joint attributes of low probability and specificity, one can supposedly demonstrate that every outcome in T, including E, is highly improbable under some given chance hypothesis.
Truly random sets of bit strings - those Demski would consider unspecified - could not be generated by a simple algorithm: i.e., they would not be compressible. Conversely, highly “specified” bit strings would be highly compressible. Compressibility and Dembski’s specification are closely related, as Dembki himself tries to argue in his paper. In fact, Dembki’s function Phi_S(.), the specificational resources, in essence, a measure of the compressibility of T (in fact, compressibility can be viewed as the logarithm of “specificational resources”).
It is also important to note that the cardinality of T and compressibility of T are in general completely unrelated. #T will help you determine P(T|H), but it won’t help you determine specificational resources - e.g. the program to generate all the bit strings in T need not depend on the cardinality of T in any way. Salvador was making this very mistake earlier.
You’re right - it doesn’t effect the overall probability of occurring. But the question Dembski is trying to answer is if the highly improbable event can nonetheless be reasonably attributed to chance. For instance, any random sequence of 1000 tosses of a fair coin has the exact same probability as a series of 1000 heads: yet we will have no problem accepting that a “random-looking” series occurred by chance (in fact, one of the 2^1000 highly improbable series absolutely must occur), yet most of us will reject that 1000 heads outcome is due to chence. I - |P| gives us a measure of compressability (”specificity”) of an event, and that, in turn, might give us a level of confidence of its non-randomness (the more compressible, the less likely to be random, simply put).
I agree with pretty much everything you write in the next paragraph - in fact, it looks like you’ answer some of your own questions.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 27, 2006 @ 1:33 am
Does Behe, Salvador, Hannah or any other ID proponent possess positive evidence, such as a videotape of a new species being miraculously created? Poof!
This one made me smile… (interpreted as NO)
It seem the ID side has a noticable Lack of Poof, and I will reiterate that the Burden of Poof lies on them to produce some positive evidence of the sort they failed completely to provide at the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial.
Comment by ivy privy — July 27, 2006 @ 11:12 am
ip> No hypotheses logically follow from ID…
Hannah> Be so good as to back that up.
OK. Let’s take the case of junk DNA, a favorite from the IDEA Center website.
Remember that every time biologists make the ‘argument from bad design’, they are reminded by Paleyists that ID tells us nothing whatsoever about the identity, goals or methods of the Designer.
So then: junk DNA. Was the presence of “junk DNA” predicted by ID? No. What hypothesis about it follows from ID? Can we assume the designer put it there because it serves some purpose? No. Perhaps He just felt like it at the time. Perhaps He put it there for some purpose other than the survival of the organism itself. Perhaps it serves no current purpose but is “front-loaded” genetic material waiting to be activated. Perhaps He put it there to deliberately confound and mislead us.
Given the handicap that ID tells us nothing whatsoever about the identity, goals or methods of the Designer, what testable scientific hypothesis about “junk DNA” follows from ID?
Comment by ivy privy — July 27, 2006 @ 11:31 am
Ivy: given the handicap that ID tells us nothing whatsoever about the identity, goals or methods of the Designer, what testable scientific hypothesis about “junk DNA” follows from ID?
Excellent observation and question.
Comment by PvM — July 27, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
Leonid: “Actually, I think you are right except when you say that “S” - specificity - is represented by E. In Dembki’s new formulation, T now represents both “CI” and “S”. E is merely a singleton subset of T (i.e. a single outcome in T).
This isn’t how I understand Dembski though. In a certain sense every element of Omega, of which T is a subset, is specified. And, so, in that sense, “E is merely a singleton subset of T.” But in CSI there is a subjective entity that is the one who has a specific conception, a pattern, in mind. So, we could say that E is an element of both T and the mind of the subjective entity. It is this congruence that brings about CSI and allows us to infer design.
Here, Leonid, I think you’re misunderstanding what Dembski is saying. His classic example for CSI has to do with a set of 0’s and 1’s which, to all appearances (using statistical measures), is a random string of numbers that could have easily been generated by the flipping of a coin: 0=Heads, 1=Tails. But, in fact, if a persons approaches this string of numbers with the specification/pattern of the first 25 prime numbers in binary form, lo and behold!, that’s what is ‘hidden’ there. Since the string to all statistical analysis is ‘random’ (it corresponds to the flipping of a coin), it is incomressible. Yet, it represents CSI. So there is no connection between CSI and compressibility/incomressibility.
While I’m at this point in the conversation, I have to just simply say that I don’t consider Kolmogorov complexity to have any useful function when it comes to CSI, or to ‘design’. As I stated in an earlier post (either here or at “Specificity”), both the Caputo string and the example of the prime numbers in unary form, according to K-complexity, have “low information”; i.e., C(x)/|x| is low. Yet, there’s definitely information in both strings. Likewise, a string of 0’s and 1’s representing the outcome of a coin being flipped–independent of the example Dembski used–while containing no information whatsoever, would be considered “high” in information since its C(x)/|x| would be around 1. As I’ve stated before, this is all just ‘apples and oranges’. Randomness and ’specificity’ are not equivalent in Dembski’s formulation, and K-complexity simply measures ‘randomness’. Thus, they don’t correlate. Maybe what helps to ’see’ this is by looking at the very definition of SAI, which follows from its Kolmogorov roots: Specified Anti-Information. Dembski in using I, measures ‘information’, while the K-system is measuring “anti-information”.
I was making that exact point.
I agree completely. But this means that since #T is independent of compressibility, that whereas I will not vary according to whether E is compressible or incompressible, SAI definitely varies. Dembski formerly used only I. He has now changed that to include Phi_s, but as I was trying to point out above, it seems to me he is including Phi_s only to include an upper bound as to any uncertainty there might be in specifying “E”. Now you can look at Phi_s, mathematically, as effectively ‘working the same way’ as Phi_s, but that, I believe, is just simply an artifact of mathematics. The upshot is that I is such a large number that you subtract all the ’specificational resources’ you want, and all the ‘replicational resources’ you want and “I minus all that stuff” is still an extremely large number. Another way of saying it in terms of SAI, would be, it seems to me, that SAI is ALWAYS positive when it comes to CSI.
Well, I think the example you give can serve as a perfect illustration of the differences between CSI and SAI. In the random string of length 1000, SAI equals zero (I=-log-2[1/2^1000]; |P| has to be at least 1000 bits long due to randomnes/incomressiblity) while I =1000. For the string with 1000 heads, SAI=1000 while I =1000 again. Now, you might say, “Well, there you have it, SAI can tell the difference between the two strings and I (CSI) can’t. Case closed!” There’s two parts to my reply: (1) Let’s now use Kolmogorov complexity to analyze what we’re looking at. In the case of the random sequence generated by 1000 tosses, C(x)/|x| is almost one. According to Kolmogorov theory, (again using Table 1 of the Appendix) this means that this string contains “high information”. In the case of a sequence of 1000 heads, C(x)/|x| is almost zero, and Kolmogorov theory tells us that it represents “low information.” So, whereas Kolmogorov theory is excellent when it comes to telling us whether we’re dealing with a ‘random’ sequence or not, and hence, in determining whether bit-strings contain information or not, it does not seem able in the least to deal with information when it comes to real life applications. (2) The measure of I that Dembski uses is simply a ‘barometer’ of complexity. There is a certain ‘threshold’ of complexity that a particular ’specification’ must contain for it to be considered CSI. So, in the case of a random sequence of length 1000, or 1000 heads, the measure of complexity is the same (as you said: “For instance, any random sequence of 1000 tosses of a fair coin has the exact same probability as a series of 1000 heads.”). Now a subjective entity must come along and applies a ‘pattern’ to these strings. Based on what is known about probabilities, the first string would look random. The 1000 1’s, or 0’s (however we choose to specify a ‘heads’) would not look random, and would probably appear purposeful. Or, as you say, “most of us will reject that 1000 heads outcome is due to chence.” The upshot is that Kolmogorov complexity would tell us that the ‘random sequence’ was purposeful (had “high information”) while the CSI approach which, let us note, you instinctively took, tells us that the ‘all heads’ string was purposeful (contained ’some’ information). Here, unfortunately, CSI gets “high marks”, while SAI gets “low marks”.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 27, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
The thought just occurred to me: did S&E make a mistake in their Table 1 and put “high” information where it should read “low”, and vice versa?
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 27, 2006 @ 1:36 pm
Lino, you are very close, and we essentially agree on many things from a mathematical perspective, but I think you are failing to make a couple of crucial connections. Let’s go into the details of your reply:
But the string is compressible! There is a fairly simple, short algorithm to generate the first K prime numbers in binary form, for absolutely any value of K.
A seemingly better example of what you are trying to convey is the following. Suppose I give you an outcome of what appear to be 1000 flips of a fair coin. In response, you produce a piece of paper, containing the exact same sequence of 1000 heads and tails that as the outcome I gave you. Yet produced have written this sequence without knowing anything about my coin-tossing expreminent; this would consitute what Debmski calls a “pre-specification”. Obviously, we would both have great trouble believing that outcome of my coin-tossing is really random: yet the sequence you wrote down has not been compressed in any way. So where does compressibility come in?
The answer is that, by writing down this “random” sequence, you essentially compressed it into a single concept in your knowledge base (what Dembski might refer to as a “communication system”). We can therefore rule the “randomness” of the outcome based on the idea that it is just too improbable that the outcome is so extremely compressible within the context of your own subjective knowledge. Dembski argues that if we consider all possible knowlege bases of all possible semiotic agents, and if the event is sufficiently improbable and yet highly compressible within at least one agent’s knowledge base, then the event is not likely to have occurred by chance.
Note, that much like Dembski’s “specificational resources” are determined from the subjective knowledge base of a semiotic agent, so is Kolmogorov complexity determined from the perspective of some subjectively chosen Universal Turing Machine (a programming language, more or less) used to compose programs. So K-complexity is not an invariant statistical property of strings: like “specificational resources”, there is a subjective component to it as well.
Well, not “case closed”, but you are very close. “I” alone can’t tell the difference between the “random” outcome and all heads. We need some additional knowledge in order to do so. Both Dembski and S&E attempt to formulate this “additional knowledge” mathematically, in very similar ways. (Dembski through Phi_S(T), S&E through |P|).
I agree with the rest of your paragraph, except for your persistent confusion over the meaning of “information”. For example, you write:
This may be a confusion borne from reading too much Dembski, but neither in standard nor in algorithmic information theory does “high information” have anything to do with “purposeful”. Particularly, in algorithmic inforation theory, “information” is simply the number of bits needed to represent a string. Highly compressible strings need relatively few bits (C(x)/|x| close to 0), so they are “low information”. Algorithmically random strings are incompressible (C(x)/|x| close to 1), so they are “high information”, as we need more bits to represent them. Similarly, it can be shown in standard (Shannon) information theory that random sequences carry more information, as information there is roughly defined as the additional knowledge we need to eliminate uncertainty. So, both in standard and algorithmic information theory, randomness corresponds to higher information content. Just the way it is.
Note also that “random” is in no way opposite to “purposeful”. Many algorithms in computer science utilize random number generation in order to solve a wide range of problems: in fact, a large majority of interesting and scientifically relevant open problems can only be solved with algorithms that rely heavily on randomization. I hope you would agree that such randomness is “purposeful”.
Finally, note that when C(x)/|x| is low, SAI(x) is actually high, just as CSI would be. To see this, recall that:
SAI(x) = |x| - C(x) = |x| - (C(x)/|x|) * |x| = |x| * (1 - C(x)/|x|).
Note that as C(x)/|x| approaches 0, SAI(x)->|x| (becomes as high as possible), and as C(x)/|x| approaches 1, SAI(x)->0 (becomes as low as possible). Thus, SAI(x) behaves exactly as CSI(x) does.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 27, 2006 @ 4:12 pm
But, Leonid, you could only compress the string via a program, as Sal would say, in a ‘post-dictive’ manner. Only when you’ve ‘recognized’ a ‘design/pattern’ could you then move on to “compress” it. In this example, at least, CSI precedes SAI.
Later on in the post you write: ““I” alone can’t tell the difference between the “random” outcome and all heads. We need some additional knowledge in order to do so. Both Dembski and S&E attempt to formulate this “additional knowledge” mathematically, in very similar ways. (Dembski through Phi_S(T), S&E through |P|).”
Yet, isn’t Phi_s(T) exactly the “specificational resources” the semeotic agent brings to his ‘inspection’ of the string and which allows him to ‘recognize’ the string of Prime Numbers? And isn’t it the recognition of this pattern in turn what allows the 1000 ‘random’ sequence to now be “compressed” by a ‘program’ (P)? Then, for this example at least, without the subjective agent/semeotic agent and his “specificational resources”, CSI would not be detected, and, as far as SAI is concerned, it couldn’t tell the difference. I guess the point I’m making here is the priority, and the necessity, of the semeotic agent with his Phi_s(T). It would seem that SAI is dependent here on CSI, and is unable to use S&E’s “additional knowledge”(the program P) until the pattern is perceived.
You allude to this “priority” when you say elsewhere: “So where does compressibility come in?
The answer is that, by writing down this “random” sequence, you essentially compressed it into a single concept in your knowledge base (what Dembski might refer to as a “communication system”). We can therefore rule the “randomness” of the outcome based on the idea that it is just too improbable that the outcome is so extremely compressible within the context of your own subjective knowledge. “
In other words, our minds immediately ’sense’ that the pattern we see ‘cannot’ be ‘random’. The mind ’sees’ that it is ‘compressible’. It ’sees’ the pattern. It then writes a program to ‘compress’ the pattern. In brief, CSI is “pre-dictive” (Dembski requires this), while SAI is “post-dictive.”
Just in passing, while you say that there is a “subjective component” to SAI via the “subjectively chosen Universal Turing Machine . . . used to compose programs.” Yet, Turing machines don’t exist, do they? Computers are similar, yes; but from what I remember the Turing machine is like a mathematical construct, i.e., it’s a conceptual, not an actual entity. And if “low information” is tantamount to “highly compressible”, and no more, then this seems like a very restrictive understanding of “information”. Don’t take offense; but I prefer Dembski’s notion (which basically is taken over from Shannon’s information theory, no?).
Finally, to take a real world example to compare SAI and CSI, using the protein molecule, SAI would consider almost every, if not every, protein a.a. sequence random, and therefore ‘incompressible’. That’s as much as it can tell us. But I–calculated just from the improbability of the a.a. sequence–under Dembski’s notion of CSI, tells us that we very likely looking at something that is designed. Maybe that seems outlandish, but I believe that science will come to find out that each ‘protein’ molecule is nothing more than a combination ‘quantum computer’ and ‘nanotech tool’.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 28, 2006 @ 10:33 pm
Leonid:
Yes. Another way of looking at it is to define the event to include not just Leonid’s outcome, but Lino’s also. Then it’s obvious that the combined outcome X is compressible, specifically C(X) = |X|/2 + c.
True, but we should note that the variance is only in the constant c (see invariance theorem), so C(X) approaches invariance for longer bit strings.
I really appreciate your lucid explanations. They’ve helped me considerably.
Comment by secondclass — July 31, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
Second Class writes:
I was thinking more along the lines of C(X)=1. That is, Lino is now in possession of a function that maps a “random” sequence of bits X to a single concept in his dictionary. Or alternatively, Lino has developed a programming language where there exists a basic command R s.t. a program whose body consists solely of the text “R” produces the output X. In other words, the compressibility function C is determined by the programming language in question.
That is correct, but it is important to remember that c can be arbitrarily large, and will depend on the programming languages chosen. In fact, for any fixed string X, we can trivially describe a programming language s.t. C(X) = k, where k is a small constant (just like I’ve done above). Of course, such a language will need to incorporate prior knowledge of X - which is exactly what Dembski describe via his notion of “pre-specification”. His whole set of definitions seems to me to be a very awkward way of re-phrasing standard ideas about compressibility, which he obviously uses as a starting point for his own musings in the earlier sections of his paper. To quote the famous physicist Lev Landau, Dembki’s work “contains many things which are new and interesting. Unfortunately, everything that is new is not interesting, and everything which is interesting, is not new.”
Thank you for the kind words. Glad I could of service. :)
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — August 1, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
Leonid:
I think that’s a key to understanding Dembski’s work. Specificity is nothing more than compressibility, which means that it works as a randomness test, but not much else. That is, compressibility can tell us that a string isn’t completely random, but it can’t tell us whether that non-randomness is a product of intelligence or of a dumb deterministic process.
Comment by secondclass — August 1, 2006 @ 4:32 pm
The discussions are continuing at Specified Complexity.
If I have time, I will continue on there with discussions of Shallit’s work.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — August 1, 2006 @ 9:56 pm