Analogy, Induction, and Specious Arguments
“…and, in the same manner…”
Analogies. They come up all the time; useful in teaching or explaining, perhaps essential to our way of viewing the world; and yet highly problematic when too much relied upon. In his summary of Behe’s argument Allen suggests intelligent design theorists have made a fatal mistake in their reasoning, and are presenting nothing but the poorest form of logical argument, an “argument from analogy”. Is this a fair criticism?
All of the examples of design Behe provides in pages 194-204 to support his definition and design detection algorithm are clearly and unambiguously designed because they are all designed by humans, and we all agree that humans can indeed design things. However, arguing that this somehow validates his definition/algorithm is simply an argument by analogy, and we have already concluded that this form of argument alone is logically specious.
I submit that this charge is itself specious; that the design hypothesis, while based on analogies in the same way all non-deductive reasoning must necessarily be, is nevertheless a valid inductive argument; fraught with the same pitfalls as other non-mathematical inductive arguments, but neither unsound nor of inferior logic.
Our reasoning is as follows: in all situations in which we have a causal history, the presence of complex specified information (or, in Behe’s case, IC systems) unequivocally entails intelligent agency. While intelligent agency is capable of producing CSI, no other causes have been shown to have that capability. The reasonable inference, then, in those situations where we observe CSI but do not have a causal history, is to infer design by intelligent agency as the best explanation.
Allen’s charge is grounded upon the “human” element in most examples of unequivocal design; he claims that this shared property moves the argument into the camp of logically specious transductive arguments. This claim is unwarranted. In any inductive argument there is a case to be made for potential dissimilarities between the set that is observed and that to which we are generalizing; indeed, simply by virtue of having been observed, the initial set will always have some common property the extended one does not. While we may take this as a warning of the uncertainty that accompanies any inductive inference, this does not in any way invalidate the argument.
Michael Behe addresses this briefly in his response to Kitzmiller:
Cellular machines and machines in our everyday world share a relevant property — their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts — and so inductive conclusions to design can be drawn on the basis of that shared property. To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain. Neither the judge nor the Darwinists he uncritically embraces have done that in respect to intelligent design.
Nor yet, as far as I can tell, has anyone here.
Regarding analogies, Darwinian evolution relies on analogy of a “random” variable. So it too, should not be given a free pass for analogical reasoning if ID is being disqualified for the same.
The way “random” is characterized in evolutionary biology is through a stochastic processes. Projecting this “random” variable analogy onto biotic reality is not even logically consistent with the appearance of specified complexity. Appeals to the oxymoron known as natural selection to filter out “random” outcomes does not fix the logical inconsistency as demonstrated by Dembski’s displacement theorem. The framework of naturalistic evolution, with respect to emergence of specified complexity, is therefore an assertion that square circles exist.
At least ID’s conception is logically consistent. Given a choice between a self-contradictory theory versus a logically consistent one, I will say the logically consistent one has a substantial edge to qualify as the better theory. ID is the logically consistent theory in this case. Whether it is true is a separate issue, but it at least is logically consistent…
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 19, 2006 @ 4:15 pm
Hannah:
I submit that the above, with regard to specified complexity, is demonstrably tautological.
1) To determine that something exhibits specified complexity, you must rule out a null hypothesis, which, according to Dembski, “takes into account Darwinian and other material mechanisms.” (see here)
2) Therefore, the definition of specified complexity entails either immaterial design or unknown material mechanisms.
3) If the causal history is known, then that rules out unknown material mechanisms.
4) Therefore, if the causal history is known, then specified complexity, by definition, entails immaterial design.
Since design is required by the definition of specified complexity in the case of a known causal history, Hannah’s statement above is tautological.
Comment by secondclass — July 19, 2006 @ 5:26 pm
Secondclass
Suggest a closer reading of Dembski’s paper. He distinguishes between “chance” and “design,” not between material causes and “unembodied designers.” He particularly discusses “materially embodied designers” and “undirected material mechanisms.”
Thus, your 2) does not hold.
Comment by David L. Hagen — July 19, 2006 @ 8:03 pm
Salvador wrote:
Would you care to explain what the displacement theorem has to do with biological evolution? I’ve read Dembski’s paper on the subject, and I am at a total loss. Keeping in mind the fact that Dembski plays fast and loose with the concept of “assisted search” and equates it with “probability measure”, his theorem can be stated as follows:
Suppose W is a finite set with a small ‘target’ subset T, such that |T|/|S|=p. (i.e. p is the probability of picking an element in T uniformly at random when sampling from S). Let M(W) be a set of all possible probability measures on W. Suppose we are interested only in the set of probability measures M*(W,q) that assign a probability q to T so that q>p. Now, assuming that all the probability measures in M(W) are distributed uniformly at random, the probability of choosing a measure in M*(W,q) when sampling from M(W) will generally be smaller than p. Or, more succinctly and informally, the more probability measures favor the “target” set T, the less frequently such measures occur among all possible measures.
Now, Dembski equates the term “probability measure” with “assisted search”, but his justification for this is pure handwaving. (He seems to think that he can model any search as a series of pairwise independent, equi-probable steps, which, IMO, is just wrong: searches based on evolutionary algorithms certainly do not work that way.)
So it is unclear whether this theorem of his has any bearing even on “assisted searches”. What it has to do with biology is anyone’s guess. Perhaps Salvador would be so kind as to point out what constitutes a set of all possible probability measures on a finite set with a fixed target subset in the world of, say, biology?
The following article discusses additional shortcoming of Dembski’s “displacement theorem”. In the final analysis, Dembski’s long-winded exercise in formal mathematics does nothing to undermine evolution in the real world.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 19, 2006 @ 10:32 pm
Salvador wrote:
It is easy to for a position to be logically consistent when no empirical evidence or logical inference can possibly contradict it. As I said before, science would become so much simpler if we would only embrace ID…
By the way, why do you say stochastic processes are logically inconsistent with the appearance of specified complexity? I can see how you might argue that the latter is highly improbable as the result of the former within emprically determined time frames, but I see no inherent logical inconsistency between the two. Is there a new ID argument going around that I’ve missed out on?
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 19, 2006 @ 10:44 pm
Hannah quotes Behe,
Actually, Judge Jones did exactly this:
Comment by nmatzke — July 20, 2006 @ 12:11 am
Thank you Hannah for your argument. And although I appreciate your enthusiasm, I believe that you have been tricked by the arguments of ID.
I will take you step by step through your analysis and will show how your claims fail
Hannah
Not only is this based on a poor analogy but suffers from the simple problem that CSI is a begging the question concept. Let’s for the moment skip ’specification’ as this is trivial in biology. So we are left with complexity. So what does it mean that something contains CSI? It means that science has been unable so far to explain something. The moment science explains something CSI drops to zero. In other words, CSI is just a place holder for the argument that science does not explain something in sufficient details. Then there is the second problem: ID has failed to show the existence of CSI in any non begging the question examples. In other words, it is not even clear that CSI exists.
Conclusion: CSI is a begging the question argument since CSI cannot by definition arise from natural processes
In other words, CSI states that that which is designed is designed. Things however get much harder in case of biology where function is a natural outcome of the evolutionary processes. So how do we distinguish between apparant and actual CSI? In fact, Wesley Elsberry challenged Dembski to explain this and Dembski was forced to admit that CSI comes in two flavors, apparant and actual.
That’s quite an important concession as Dembski basically admits that the age old apparant versus actual design problem still exists and no solution is given how to resolve the differences.
But things get worse for ID, since ID has yet to show that it can explain design in nature, it is using a false analogy in addition to a begging the question or circular definition of CSI.
Since ID refuses to present any competing hypotheses of how a system arose, it cannot compete with ‘we don’t know’. Why is this a real problem? Well, in case of eliminative arguments, the existence of false positives renders the approach fully useless. As it is self evident, and even admitted to by Dembski, such false positives do exist and does render the filter unreliable as we have no independent way to determine how well the design inference holds up to the ‘we don’t know’ null hypothesis.
Conclusion: ID is based on two concepts: an eliminative argument and an analogy. The eliminative argument is rendered useless by false positives and the inability of ID to provide a way to constrain the ID hypothesis, allowing it to be tested against the null hypothesis. The analogy argument is rendered irrelevant because of the circular definition of CSI which states that something which can be explained in terms of regularity and chance, has zero CSI.
There have been quite a few people who have pointed out the many problems with ID. That ID relies on ‘induction’ significantly undermines its argument, especially when combined with a circular definition of CSI and an approach which is purely eliminative.
So let’s accept for a moment that Hannah is right and that induction leads to a hypothesis? What testable hypothesis would this be? That life is designed? We need no induction to generate such a hypothesis, we need the empirical evidence that shows positive evidence for these claims. ID refuses to deal however in these concepts.
No hypotheses logically follow from ID beyond, natural processes cannot explain…’x’.
As a Christian and Scientist I find it highly troubling that ID provides its unexpecting followers with arguments which open them up to rightful ridicule.
I have heard more than once people argue that they have been assured by ID proponents that ID provides a solid scientific foundation for its claims. Given the simple fact that no such solid, scientific foundation even closely exists, I cringe at hearing those arguments, especially from Christians. And imagine the response of such Christians when they find out that ID is really quite empty handed? The cost to science is bad enough but the cost to religious faith should not be trivialized.
A good reminder by Augustine who wrote over 1600 years ago in “The Literal Meaning of Genesis”
(Augustine, “De Genesi ad Litteram” On the Literal Meaning of Genesis, pp. 42-43).
I understand that Hannah is studying mathematics and in that light the following comments should be relevant:
Wimsatt:
Del Ratzsch:
Charles Darwin, 1871 THE DESCENT OF MAN
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:20 am
Appeals to the oxymoron known as natural selection to filter out “random” outcomes does not fix the logical inconsistency as demonstrated by Dembski’s displacement theorem. The framework of naturalistic evolution, with respect to emergence of
You have made this erroneous comment before and have been asked to support your claims.
It should be clear to all that Sal’s argument is nothing more than a proof by assertion.
Sal’s meaningless statement is easily contradicted by information theory as I have shown elsewhere. What has ID contributed to information theory? How does ID explain neutrality? Degeneracy? Nested Hierarchies? Scale free Networks? Evolvability?
It doesn’t and yet science does. Let not be fooled by Sal’s empty claims and while I can understand why Sal believes these statements to be true, the true source of his misconceptions are to be found in the often equivocating ID claims. Of course, a quick perusal of the vaste amount of resources on the internet would quickly show how empty ID really is.
Remember:
1. Original Claim: CSI is a reliable detector of intelligent design. Revised claim: There is apparant and actual CSI and ID fails to resolve how to differentiate between the two.
2. Original Claim: No natural processes can generate CSI. Of course few would tell you that this is by definition not through logic or reason.
3. IC is a reliable detector of design. Revised claim: IC in some circumstances can show how some systems cannot be explained by solely relying on natural selection and the maintenance of the original function.
It should not come as a surprise that much of ID is written in Jello. What saddens me is how it seems to lead so many well intentioned Christians astray into making claims which simply cannot follow from the limited foundation of the ID claim (explanatory filter.)
I am well aware that Dembski has attempted to salvage his claims by first appealing to the No Free Lunch theorems. As I have shown, under these theorems random search is trivially simple. In fact, not only is search trivially simple but high dimensional fitness landscapes are well connected via near neutral mutations. Just as we see in nature.
2. When the NFL theorems failed to provide much support for his claims some of which include such meaningless concepts as the law of conservation of information which is neither a law nor conserves, Dembski attempted to argue that the search for large spaces requires a metasearch. Again, to those unfamiliar with evolutionary science, mathematics and information theory, this may sound impressive but the simple fact is that a needle in the haystack search, which is how IDers perceive evolution, becomes quite plausible under neutrality. See Finding Needles in Haystacks is Not Hard with Neutrality (2002) Tina Yu, Julian Miller. So what about search?
Howard Pattee, whose work has been misinterpreted by Voie to argue for ID, observed the following
and
And yet, ID seldomly quotes these relevant research findings? Why is that?
So why is it that ID research seldomly references these findings?
Are ID proponents even surprised that ID avoids these issues in their writings?
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:35 am
If naturalistic evolution is offered as a highly likely explanation it has to be highly probable based on it’s own mechanisms. It is not highly probable even based on it’s own mechanisms, therefore it’s logically inconsistent. However if the theory characterized itself as a very weak possibility based on it’s proposed mechanisms it would be a logically consistent theory.
If I said I found 500 fair coins all tails on the floor and claimed the result was likely the product of random chance, that would be a logically inconsistent statement. A logically consistent statement is that even though chance may be an explanation it would be a very, very, very weak one with a 1 in 2^500 chance.
Hang on here. We have two issues:
1. definition of design
2. cause of design
Definitions are by nature tautological. At least the IDers have definitions that result in logically consistent inferences. Which is in contrast to evolutionary biology that has logically inconsistent or weakly stated definitions and inferences.
What is falsifiable however is:
A. whether an artifact can fit a pre-existing definition of design
B. and if it fits, whether an intelligence is a reasonable cause
That is not the case for ID with respect to certain artifacts of interest. Succeed in spontaneous generation and you’ll break the will of many IDers.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 12:38 am
Leonid observes
Yes through equivocation and circular arguments ID has managed to cloud the issues significantly and I hope to assist in unraveling some of the more egrerious examples such as defining CSI that it cannot be generated by natural processes per definition, or the equivocation between such terms as specification and specify, or information as defined by ID and information as it is more commonly used in sciences.
But many people have contributed to showing the scientific vacuity of ID.
For example: ID argues that design is that which remains after natural processes and chance have been eliminated. So in other words, design could be the empty set. Only by conflating intelligent design as more commonly used with a definition which presumes that which it needs to prove, can ID further its claims.
Imagine the cost to faith when the faithful come to realize that ID is hardly the solid scientific argument they were led to believe?
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:39 am
A good example of how not to argue comes from Sal’s example. Can anyone tell us where the logical fallacy resides?
If naturalistic evolution is offered as a highly likely explanation it has to be highly probable based on it’s own mechanisms. It is not highly probable even based on it’s own mechanisms, therefore it’s logically inconsistent. However if the theory characterized itself as a very weak possibility based on it’s proposed mechanisms it would be a logically consistent theory.
If I said I found 500 fair coins all tails on the floor and claimed the result was likely the product of random chance, that would be a logically inconsistent statement. A logically consistent statement is that even though chance may be an explanation it would be a very, very, very weak one with a 1 in 2^500 chance.
Hint: Sal switches from evolutionary mechanisms to chance alone, leading the poor reader to believe that there is a logical argument presented.
I have seen countless examples of this bait and switch-like argument, start of with a more general argument and then disprove the specific while arguing that it disproves the general argument.
So how does science resolves this? Simple: A simple rule of always Tail generates the set of 500 tail coins. In other words, the existence of a regularity shows how easy this example can be resolved. Of course things become even worse because the example of heads and tails shows another false analogy, namely that the usual coin toss is only an example of chance alone and thus seldomly seen as generated by regularity and yet, a flawed coin, or a two faced Tail coin can all explain the observation and none of these need to involve intelligent design.
In other words, garbage in, garbage out. I thank Sal for providing us with a good example of a flawed argument in which the switch from regularity and chance to chance alone is made so clearly.
Remember: If naturalistic evolution is offered as a highly likely explanation then it has to be highly probable based on it’s own mechanisms. Those are Sal’s words and yet Sal limits the argument to only one aspect of evolution, namely pure chance alone.
Similarly, various of Dembski’s examples should be rejected as well, since they either ignore the processes of regularity, or fail to follow the prescribed recipes for how to apply the explanatory filter. Sal’s example however seems to beat them all/
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:48 am
Here’s Nick quoting Judge Jones:
“For human artifacts, we know the designer’s identity, human, and the mechanism of design, as we have experience based upon empirical evidence that humans can make such things, as well as many other attributes including the designer’s abilities, needs, and desires.”
Here’s me quoting Michael Denton:
“How would stone age man have judged a motor car or a pocket calculator? Incapable of manufacturing anything other than a crudely shaped flint tool, so primitive that it could hardly be distinguished from a natural piece of rock, the inside of a pocket calculator would seem a purposeless tangle of strings–a random maze of straw trapped inside a leather bag. . . .How would an ancient Egyptian have judged an airplane or a submarine? Only if our ancestors had seen a man in the cockpit of the airplane would they have grasped the incredible, that it was na artefact. It would, of course, be an artefect beyond their comprehension–an artefact of the gods.”
The point here is obvious: Stone Age man would understand nothing of a calculator–let alone a computer (Denton was writing in the mid-80’s). Without any knowledge of plastics, electricity, circuitry, L.E.D’s, etc, they wouldn’t stand a chance of understanding any part of it. And, yet, a calculator is the product of human intelligence. Then, on the other hand, we moderns understand that DNA acts as a code. We understand that DNA codes for proteins. We know enough to recognize intelligence in the genome——-And what do Darwinists aregue?: “What KIND of intelligence is it? We don’t know anything about this intelligence!”
What a feeble, completely irrelevant argument this is. No more than a distraction. We certainly know more about this intelligence than Stone Age man would know about a calculator, for whom a calculator would be “an artefact beyond their comprehension—an artefact of the gods.”
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 20, 2006 @ 12:52 am
Hang on here. We have two issues:
1. definition of design
2. cause of design
Definitions are by nature tautological. At least the IDers have definitions that result in logically consistent inferences. Which is in contrast to evolutionary biology that has logically inconsistent or weakly stated definitions and inferences.
That’s funny but again illogical. First of all, Sal and other creationists used to object strongly to the tautological nature of natural selection and now they are arguing that tautology is somehow a strength?
But let’s quickly point out that while definitions are tautological, ways to detect design cannot be tautological and yet they rely on a definition of CSI which precludes natural processes by definition… No wonder that ID can conclude that natural processes cannot generate CSI.
No Sal, ID is not what you hoped it to be. In fact I’d argue it matches much of your assertions about evolutionary theory. Assertions which as usual could benefit from some logical or empirical support…
Trust me…
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 12:52 am
Succeed in spontaneous generation and you’ll break the will of many IDers.
I guess Sal is accepting that the front loading argument is not really a relevant argument after all. Or otherwise, Sal would have argued, in true ID form, that even if abiogenesis can be explained, the information had to come from an intelligence who preloaded the world with it.
See how vacuous ID really is?
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:03 am
What judge jones has shown is that ID’s approach to inferring design is very different from how science infers design.
Lino may not like this fact but it merely serves to show that ID’s claims that science applies the explanatory filter in these cases, is just plain wrong.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:06 am
By the way, why do you say stochastic processes are logically inconsistent with the appearance of specified complexity?
Because ID defines it that way. Nothing logical about it really. Of course we do know that RMNS can explain the appearance of functional information in the genome, when the appropriate definition of information is applied.
Such is the difference between ID and information theory…
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:08 am
Hannah wrote:
The above argument from ignorance attempts to ignore biological evolution while pretending there are other CSI creating entities besides humans running around. The claim should really read:“Our reasoning is as follows: in all situations in which we have a causal history, the presence of complex specified information (or, in Behe’s case, IC systems) unequivocally entails humans. While humans are capable of producing CSI, no other causes have been shown to have that capability. The reasonable inference, then, in those situations where we observe CSI but do not have a causal history, is to infer design by humans as the best explanation.”
Since we have theories supported by evidence that natural process produce CSI, and not a theory or shred of evidence for the existence of “intelligent agencies” other than humans, aren’t natural processes the better explanation? What’s the fallacy for saying “no other causes have been shown to have that capability” to infer natural processes only when one knows there are also no other intelligent agencies besides humans that have been shown to have that capability – argument from hypocrisy?
Comment by alienward — July 20, 2006 @ 1:41 am
PvM:
And what Denton was able to demonstrate is that inferring the design of a superior intelligence is no different than Stone Age man inferring design in human artefacts he’s not able to even begin to understand—with this exception: we have begun to understand the design of the Designer. Can we now end the distractions?
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 20, 2006 @ 1:42 am
Lino, I agree, we have begun to understand the design, and it ain’t what ID hoped for.
So perhaps it’s time to admit that ID has no clothes? Or perhaps, someone cares to dress it up :-)
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:45 am
Pim
As a Christian and Scientist I find it highly troubling that ID provides its unexpecting followers with arguments which open them up to rightful ridicule.
And most Christian who are professional scientists would agree wholeheartedly with you, Pim.
For example, the claim that the differences between chimps and humans were put their by a designer to give scientists something to do. That bizarre claim was made by two different ID promoters here, as I recall.
Sal wrote that ID is “logically consistent.”
It’s “logically” consistent with everything, as Sal knows, because there is no way to show scientificaly that an otherwise undetectable deity is manipulating “reality”. This was discussed on the first day of class, as I recall. It’s reason number one why “ID theory” is vacuous, i.e., useless to scientists.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 1:52 am
Lino
The point here is obvious: Stone Age man would understand nothing of a calculator–let alone a computer (Denton was writing in the mid-80’s).
So who were the entities who designed all the different life forms that ever lived on earth? Were the creatures who evolved into Stone Age men smarter than Stone Age men?
Who were these entities, Lino? Who do you think they were? Give us one or two theoretical possibilities, at least. Ideally, possibilities which allow us make predictions which we can test to evaluate the utility of the theories.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 1:55 am
Behe
Neither the judge nor the Darwinists he uncritically embraces have done that in respect to intelligent design.
This is simply an ugly smear on Judge Jones by someone (Behe) who came out of the trial looking very foolish to everyone except his most ardent disciples and those who simply lack the education to tell the difference between a genuine scientist and a professional gadfly. Thankfully, Judge Jones is not so easily confused.
Cellular machines and machines in our everyday world share a relevant property — their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts — and so inductive conclusions to design can be drawn on the basis of that shared property. To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain.
As others have already noted, the obvious and relevant difference is that when we see an “everday machine” and decide that a human made it, we do so based on our knowledge — proven facts, actually — that humans exist and these humans make machines.
When we see a collection of “everyday” remarkably round and colorful balls (e.g., marbles) we say that humans made those too. Therefore, the ID promoter must argue, in the absence of a detailed second-by-second molecule-by-molecule “explanation”, we shold conclude that intelligent designers created the solar system too. Such is the underlying “logic” of ID.
Scientists are not interested in wasting time with anti-scientific nonsense. I leave it as a challenge to the ID promoters here to figure out why scientists reject ID and why certain sects of Christians embrace it.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 2:18 am
I got stuck in the anti-spam filter.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 2:18 am
Sal
That is not the case for ID with respect to certain artifacts of interest. Succeed in spontaneous generation and you’ll break the will of many IDers.
Hilarious. “Break the will.” And who would be left after that momentous event? Based on their rhetoric, the only way to knock ID superstars Behe and Dembski off the boat would be to create life in a test tube and prove that the life could evolve into at least as many different life forms as have ever existed on earth.
But as others here have noted, this extreme skepticism isn’t applied to every observable phenomenon that can’t be explained completely and with 100% accuracy.
Instead, the vocal and strident skepticism of ID promoters is applied particularly to some aspects of science that hold significance to certain people for non-scientific reasons.
This arbitrary behavior is more consistent with a political movement than the growth of a new field of biology.
Comment by Michael Hubl — July 20, 2006 @ 2:31 am
As this discussion begins about Dembski’s work, it is worth noting that the definitions of “Complex Specified Information”/”Specified Complexity” are a mess. The IDists (and many of their critics) operate on two different definitions, and switch between them as convenient.
Definition type #1: Observational definition:
Here, “unevolvability” is not part of the definition of SC, so SC systems — basically any complex system in biology, on this definition — might — or might not — be able to evolve.
Definition type #2: Tautological definition:
Here, “unevolvability” is part of the definition of SC, so SC cannot evolve by definition, and saying “SC cannot evolve” is merely stating a useless tautology. The real argument here is whether or not SC, i.e. unevolvable, systems actually exist in biology.
ID/creationists switch between these two types definitions at will, in order to have the appearance of an argument. Mark my words…
Comment by matzke1 — July 20, 2006 @ 2:37 am
Thanks Nick. Love’em self contradictions…
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 3:05 am
Nick,
You are representing observations and descriptions of the properties of specified complex objects and then claiming these observations and descriptions are definitions. That is disingenuous.
That is like taking quotes from an evolutionary biologist who might say the following:
1. evolution is the foundation of biology
2. evolution is descent with modification
3. evolution is slow
And then saying, “look at all the inconsistent definitions of evolution, what a horrible theory. I’ve just listed three definitions, and look how different they are. Evolution is therefore a mess.”
I thus challenge Nick to cite the book and page number where the actual definition of specified complexity is given rather than taking descriptions of it’s properties and claiming they are definitions.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 3:23 am
I thought a trackback would appear on here, but apparently not… oh well… anyway, I have a response to Hannah’s original post:
The Design Analogy.
Comment by Dan — July 20, 2006 @ 9:54 am
An apparently designed object found!
The designer unknown, along with how, when and why. Could this be a calling card left by the “Intelligent Designer”?
I say not. As the article discusses, the object contains in its makeup evidence about the tools and technology used in its manufacturer, which tells us something about who it might have been.
Meanwhile, no positive evidence whatsoever has been found for the actions of the mysterious “Intelligent Designer”. Does Behe, Salvador, Hannah or any other ID proponent possess positive evidence, such as a videotape of a new species being miraculously created? Poof!
Comment by ivy privy — July 20, 2006 @ 10:16 am
David L. Hagen:
According to Dembski, nature cannot produce CSI, so design is always a supernatural process. Whether the designer is embodied or not is irrelevant.
As usual, Pim has fleshed out the issue much better than I can. As he said in post #7, CSI disappears when a natural cause is discovered.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 11:34 am
Salvador:
Not so. Reread the quote from Dembski:
Indeed, to attribute specified complexity to something is to say that the specification to which it conforms corresponds to an event that is highly improbable with respect to all material mechanism that might give rise to the event.
[emphasis mine]
Your argument is with Dembski. If you have a definition of SC that’s consistent with everything he has written on the subject, please share it.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 11:45 am
Funny how ID proponents like Sal used to lament the confusing definitions of evolution but they seem to have no problem with similar self-defeating definitions by IDers…
Irony aside, Nick is correct that ID switches ’seamlessly’ between two very different definitions, one which is totally tautological to confuse the issues about CSI.
Note that Sal ignores the objections and laments about something irrelevant, redirecting the conversation away from the embarassment of CSI.
I do not blame Sal for this, since dealing with the vagueness, self contradictions of ID, quickly reduces ID to irrelevance.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:11 pm
In post #25, Nick comments:
I don’t see the word “unevolvability” anywhere in the quote. So you must think it is somehow implied. I don’t see it implied either. Could you elaborate?
I suppose you think that the phrase, “specified complexity . . . is inexplicable in terms of all material mechanism . . .” sounds like a complex, specified object cannot ‘evolve’. But Dembski is not saying that form A cannot change into form B, but simply that for this to happen an intelligent agent is presupposed: hence, “intelligent design.”
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 20, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
Let’s not confuse the meaning of evolution. Nick’s statement is quite clear.
No need to redirect away from Nick’s excellent rebuttals. But I do understand the temptation as the vacuity of ID is laid out for all to see.
Let’s also clear up the confusion that ‘design’ requires an agent…
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
Lino, do you agree with the following statement by Dembski?
So too, for ID to gauge the unevolvability of biological systems and to establish the need for intelligence to bring about such systems may well turn out to be a catalyst of scientific research whose significance might even end up being comparable to that of the laws of thermodynamics.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:21 pm
Lino:
(emphasis mine)
So Lino agrees that design is built into the definition of specified complexity, thus making SC-based design inferences tautological. I’m glad we’re all on the same page.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 1:26 pm
So let’s look some more at definitions
Given an event A of probability P(A), I(A) = -log2P(A) measures the number of bits associated with the probability P(A). We therefore speak of the “complexity of information” and say that the complexity of information increases as I(A) increases (or, correspondingly, as P(A) decreases). We also speak of “simple” and “complex” information according to whether I(A) signifies few or many bits of information. This notion of complexity is important to biology since not just the origin of information stands in question, but the origin of complex information.
So if the probability of an event approaches 1, because we can explain the causal factors leading up to it, then information/complexity is reduced to zero.
In other words, when we can explain an event by design OR by regularity/chance, the probability approaches 1 and the information approaches zero. At least in the confusing parlance of ID.
Dembski attempts to embrace information theory but it should be clear by now that his esoteric definitions only serve to lead to confusion and equivocation.
Even ignoring the tautological definition of CSI which precluded natural mechanisms from generating CSI, things do not look much better for Dembski as scientists have indeed shown that CSI can evolve under processes of RM&NS, quite trivially actually.
So, under any definition of CSI, I argue that ID remains a vacuous principle based on the presumption that design is the residual of chance and necessity.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
PvM:
The only way to distinguish between apparent and actual CSI is to look at the causal history. For example, in NFL, Dembski shows that “METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL” has a complexity of 133 bits, but in this paper, Dembski shows that the same phrase has a complexity of zero. The only difference is the causal history.
So, to determine whether something is designed, we have to calculate its real complexity, and to do that we first have to determine its causal history, which renders SC superfluous. Is it any wonder that nobody actually uses specified complexity for anything other than an ID talking point?
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 2:45 pm
From Logical Underpinnings
I show then the equivalence of specified complexity to complex specified information (CSI).
Are one of Dembski’s critics here going to post the actual definition Dembski gave for CSI (complex specified information), or are they going to keep mangling the definitions in the discussion by taking commentary on his idea and claim that’s his definition?
For example, one could quote an EBer saying:
“evolution is the foundation of biology” and claim that’s a definition then start attacking the strawman definition. Is that appropriate?
So is someone going to step forward and give the formal definition of CSI?
Salvador
Hint:
There is a chapter in No Free Lunch on “Specified Complexity as Information
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 2:48 pm
Salvador,
You have opined in the past that the formal definition is: The coincidence of conceptual and physical information where the conceptual information is both identifiable independent of the physical information and also complex.
What makes this definition more official than any of the others that Dembski has stated? If that’s the definition, why didn’t Dembski include it in his latest primer on specified complexity? In fact, his latest treatment of SC contradicts that definition as it dispenses with the independence requirement.
Once you’ve addressed those issues, we’ll discuss whether this definition can be considered “formal” by any reasonable standard.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
So is someone going to step forward and give the formal definition of CSI?
Apparently you’re not going to.
Comment by ivy privy — July 20, 2006 @ 3:16 pm
We should also note that Salvador raised the same issue with Shallit and Elsberry, to which Shallit responded:
Recycling isn’t going to work in this forum, Sal, since not all of us are new to the debate.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 3:34 pm
WHAT THE HECK DOES THE ORDERED PAIR (T,E) SIGNIFY EXCEPT THE VERY THING YOU QUOTED:
DO YOU EVEN HAVE THE BOOK IN HAND TO CHECK SHALLIT’S WORDS. TURN TO PAGE 141!!
SHEESH! You swallow Shallit’s obfuscations so uncritcally!
And that earlier definition will still work with Dembski’s later revision. However, his revision allows more clarity where the T’s and E’s can be less awkwardly stated and more in conformance with the way we tend to think of T’s and E’s.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 4:34 pm
If the definition that Shallit used is the same as the one that you claim is the formal definition, then why did you criticize Shallit?
Nope, I don’t carry it with me. If I’ve misquoted or misrepresented anything, please point it out and I’ll retract it.
Why do you consider his earlier definition, rather than his revision, to be the formal definition?Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
Here is the thread
that secondclass is referring to (his link is broken).
In it Sal says
Hmmm yet above Sal admits that Shallit used Dembski’s FORMAL definition rather than the English-language paraphrase of it. How is that “not including Dembski’s definition of his concepts”?
Is it because, perhaps, Sal thinks the English language definition is more formal than the mathematical one? Let us see…
Well, it appears that might be the case. The fact that attacking Dembski’s work in a formal way pretty much requires using the formal definition seems to escape Sal.
But, the point should be moot, since above Sal says…
Well, if they signify the same thing, why did you argue at PT that Shallit and Elsberry ignored Dembski’s own definition? If Dembski gave two, on e formal, one informal, which are equivalent, and Shallit and Elsberry used the formal one, what exactly is your beef?
Comment by Don Baccus — July 20, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
Salvador wrote:
This is very confused. Is gravity “highly probable based on its own mechanisms”? Is fluid mechanics? Until you clarify what you mean, the only response I can give to you is that so far, ID assertions notwithstanding, there is no evidence to suggest that the development of present-day level of biodiversity through known evolutionary processes is a particularly improbable occurrence. Even if it were, however, it would not render the evolutionary explanation “logically inconsistent”, although science would either start looking for a theory that better fits the evidence or seek to augment the present-day theory.
No, it would not. “That blue car is red”, or “To tell you the truth, everything I say is a lie” would be logically inconsistent statements. Saying “it is likely that these 500 coins all landed tails-up by chance” is a logical possibility, even though it is almost certainly, ceteris parabus, an awful explanation. However, suppose upon entering the room and seeing 500 coins heads up, we were stricken with a near- omniscience that allowed us to systematically rule out all other possible causes for the coins arrangement. In that case, chance will emerge not just a highly likely explanation of the data, but the only possible one. Hence, there is no logical inconsistency.
I have no desire to break anyone’s will. Still, I sincerely doubt your assertion. First, you establish no reasonable criteria for “spontaneous generation”, leaving plenty of wiggle room for ID. But even if science were to give a detailed, incontrovertible account of abiogenesis occurring purely through natural mechanisms, ID will likely simply retreat further into the comfortable depths of human ignorance, and try to pass itself of as science by pushing “design” as an explanation where scientific knowledge is either not absolute or unattainable. In fact, we already observe IDers doing exactly that, when promoting the anthropic principle. (Note: I have no problem with the anthropic principle as a theological or philosophical position. As a scientific argument, however, it is as vacuous as the rest of ID.)
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 20, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
If I said I found 500 fair coins all tails on the floor and claimed the result was likely the product of random chance, that would be a logically inconsistent statement.
If someone followed this simple procedure, would you say that the result was due to “random chance”?:
Start with 500 fair coins. For each coin, flip it. If it comes up tails, leave it be and move on to the next coin. If it comes up heads, flip it again. Repeat until all 500 coins show tails.
You, who seem to be such a stickler for definitions when it suits you, are leaving the selection out of natural selection.
The evidence for natural selection as a mechanism of evolution is about as strong as the evidence that the Earth is billions of years old.
Comment by ivy privy — July 20, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
Hmmm … that’s not much help since Sal rejects the evidence that the Earth is billions of years old, too …
Comment by Don Baccus — July 20, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
WRT the 500 tails, we don’t need CSI to tell us that they aren’t random. Randomness testing was well established before Dembski hit the scene.
And to get from a conclusion of “not random” to a conclusion of “a human did it” requires nothing more than a comparison of possible explanations, based on our background knowledge. In contrast, Dembski’s approach eschews comparisons.
Comment by secondclass — July 20, 2006 @ 6:35 pm
(That’s not the topic of this thread, but anyway…)
I criticize Shallit’s paper because:
1. he did not use the definition, contrary to his claims
2. the T,E pair description he presents as non-definitive, therefore, he didn’t use it in that respect either!
Rather, he pulled the same trick Nick Matzke pulled prevented readers from seeing the real definition.
Is Shallit providing an accurate “definition of CSI”? No, that’s a mangling of it. Presenting the proper definition of CSI will remove the false impression of inconsistency Shallit attempted to create. Of course, that starts with actually using the formal definition, which, contrary to his claims, he never really did. NOTE: Shallit in his paper mentions page 141, but what do we actually find on page 141?
The way I bolded it with the colon was exactly the way Dembski bolded it and put a colon on page 141 of his book. Thus, anyone with Dembski’s book, will see the diagram is printed on page 141 to present the formal definition.
Page 142 which Shallit claims to have the formal definition, does not have it. In fact what is embarrassing is that in his own paper he references page 141, not 142. Oops! But of course, in mentioning page 141, he shows that he willfully failed to convey what was in big letters and BOLD PRINT on page 141:
Kind of hard to miss, huh? Yet, no quotation of it at all in Shallit’s “refutation”, and the closest thing to it ( ordered T,E pairs) he presents as non-definitive.
And all of Shallit’s purported counter examples were straw man knockdowns and not based on the real definition of CSI. That’s what I mean by Shallit not including the definition, he mangled the definition of what CSI represents.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 20, 2006 @ 7:19 pm
And all of Shallit’s purported counter examples were straw man knockdowns and not based on the real definition of CSI. That’s what I mean by Shallit not including the definition, he mangled the definition of what CSI represents.
Sal, why are you focusing on an unworkable definition of CSI and fail to acknowledge the workable definitions provided by Dembski?
Are you trying to detract from the simple fact that Shallit et al destroyed Dembski’s claims?
How desperate can one get Sal. I am sure people on this board won’t be fooled.
Comment by PvM — July 20, 2006 @ 11:48 pm
Salvador wrote, quoting Dembski:
This isn’t a formal definition, it’s a conceptual one. Dembski is trying to convey, in non-technical terms, the meaning of the formalisms he attempts to develop in the book. Whether or not he is successful is highly questionable, given that even his supporters appear to have difficulty understanding what means. Might I suggest that defining information as “coincidence of information” is not the clearest way of expressing one’s ideas?
Anyhow, the definition given by Shallit is the more formal of the two, and it is entirely consistent with Dembski’s conceptual description above. Shallit wrote:
So, the definition given by Shallit corresponds to Dembski’s as follows:
Complex Specified Information:
The coincidence of conceptual and physical information [ordered pair (T;E)] where the conceptual information [the pattern T] is both identifiable independent of the physical information [the event E, to which T conforms] and also complex.
Now, Shalit’s definition is not complete, since he does not mention that T should be independent of E, but that would require a formal definition of “independence” between events and patterns, which is sadly absent from the conceptual paragraph that Salvador claims is the “formal” definition. Still of the two definitions, Shallit’s is by far the more formal; nor do I see how this omission would invalidate any of the claims in the remainder of Shallit’s paragraph.
It appears that the only indisputably correct criticism of Shallit’s rebuttal is that he was off by one page in the citation. I guess that renders his entire paper null and void. ;)
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 20, 2006 @ 11:57 pm
Notice that Shallit and others have provided real definitions of CSI. Instead of showing why their claims are wrong, Sal has focused on ad hominem argumentation rather than logic.
These seem to be desperate times if they ask for such measures.
So Sal, how come that you fail to address the arguments raised and instead accuse people without any supporting evidence?
Hannah, do you agree or disagree with Sal here? You are the mathematician.
Dembski seems clear, Sal appears to be confused.
Post #25 provides at least some mathematical definitions of CSI.
Was Dembski wrong in these definitions? Is the definition Sal insists on, a mathematically workable definition?
In this section I will present an in-principle mathematical argument for why natural causes are incapable of generating complex specified information.” Dembski p. 150 NFL
By basically defining complex specified information in such a way that it is zero when natural processes can be identified.
To give a good example, see Dembski’s ‘analysis’ of the Weasel argument
As the sole possibility that Dawkins’s evolutionary algorithm can attain, the target sequence in fact has minimal complexity (i.e., the probability is 1 and the complexity, as measured by the usual information measure, is 0). In general, then, evolutionary algorithms generate not true complexity but only the appearance of complexity. And since they cannot generate complexity, they cannot generate specified complexity either.
In other words, Dembski argues that in case of the weasel since the probability of the outcome is 1, the information is zero…
As Richard Wein observed
Elsberry immediately pointed out the problem with Dembski’s argument
But in “Explaining Specified Complexity”, Dembski does treat a known causal story as either “regularity” or “chance”. The causal story in question is that of an evolutionary algorithm which yields a specified result in a small number of tries out of a large problem space. Here, Dembski tells us that the complexity of the result (found by reference of its likelihood of occurrence due to a “chance” hypothesis”) is apparently large but actually zero, because the probability of the result given its known cause is 1.
Elsberry however did ‘force’ Dembski to admit that there is such a thing as apparant and actual CSI, and so far Dembski has failed to explain how to distinguish between the two.
Also
Dembski
My point was that Dawkins’s evolutionary algorithm converged on METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL with probability one, and therefore reduced the complexity of generating this sequence to zero. With reference to specified complexity, complexity and probability are inverse notions: High complexity presupposes many live possibilities and correspondingly assigns low probability to anyone of these possibilities. Thus, while it’s true that shaking out random scrabble pieces would render METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL highly improbable (and therefore complex), Dawkins’s evolutionary algorithm renders that sequence certain and thereby removes its complexity.
In other words, by defining CSI as the probability that natural processes can explain the system, Dembski has tautologically defined that which he attempts to prove as a given.
Tricky…
So far we can conclude that:
1. Dembski has defined CSI in a circular fashion
2. Dembski has yet to show that intelligence can actually generate CSI
The self contradictions are just piling up here.
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 12:21 am
Seems totally clear now that contrary to Sal’s claims, Shallit (who holds a PhD in mathematics) correctly represented CSI, and its fatal flaws.
Shallit is not the only mathematician to point out the flaws and ‘jello’-ness of Dembski’s arguments.
Perhaps it’s time for Sal to address Shallit’s rebuttals, or those of various others, many of which remain unadressed by ID.
Dembski: But if some outcome B is necessary given antecedent conditions A, then the probability of B given A is one, and the information in B given A is zero.
Dembski uses this to argue that a regularity cannot explain information, but if that is the case, give A, where A is intelligent design, the probability B of a known designed object approaches 1, and thus similarly to regularity, the information should approach zero.
How come that these simple facts are being ignored by ID?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 12:34 am
Those who have problems with the broad sweep of evolutionary theory object because of the same observation in a myriad of places. There are the cell itself, cell functions, body parts, body organisms and life forms, which do not have any obvious predecessor.
Behe and Dembski have tried to illustrate this in different ways and you can quibble all you want over the mathematical definitions or the definitions of irreducible complexity but each is trying to show the problems that the lack of these predecessors entail.
There are no obvious predecessors to the first cell. There are no obvious predecessors to the first phyla, which appeared during the Cambrian Explosion. There are no obvious predecessors to a large percentage of the life forms that have been found in the fossil record. There are no obvious predecessors to the body systems that Behe pointed to.
Instead we get “just so stories” or suspect computer simulations on how these life instances could have arisen but no hard evidence.
You can mock all you want Behe’s definition of irreducible complexity but the glaring fact is that there is no obvious predecessor to any of the systems he described. The fact the Ken Miller had to point to a small sub-part of the bacterial flagellum as his only defense on how the flagellum wasn’t irreducible complex shows the weakness of the objections to Behe’s observations.
The criticisms of Dembski sound like the medieval monks arguing over how many angels there were on the head of a pin. Find one supposedly flaw in the reasoning and you have made your point that the whole approach is as some commentators have said, “vacuous”
What I find irrelevant and vacuous is all the quibbling over these definitions and the inability to find any good evidence to overcome the problem of the lack of predecessors. Those who defend the broad sweep of evolutionary biology seem to be playing a game of “Gotch you” trying to belittle the other side rather than seriously addressing the problems.
Comment by J. Cosgrove — July 21, 2006 @ 9:44 am
J Cosgrove,
Thank you for you comments, and I have very much appreciated your participation here as it is an encouragement to the ID-sympathetic students and seekers out there….
I’m participating here for the benefit of the IDers (and the IDEA club members) who are interested in the topic. I address questions that I think the students might want to have answers to, and ignore the rest.
The following is the principal reason debates of this variety are of any use:
Dealing with the Backlash
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 10:31 am
Obliterating Dembski’s math and showing that Behe’s examples of IC really aren’t is hardly “quibbling”.
Speaking of “just so” stories, would you care to flesh out a few things for me?
1. What tools or methods did the designer use to design life.
2. Why don’t we see evidence of these tools or methods in the empirical record.
3. Who designed the designer?
Find the designer and you guys win, hands down. Get on it, life is short!
Comment by Don Baccus — July 21, 2006 @ 10:42 am
There are no obvious predecessors to the first phyla, which appeared during the Cambrian Explosion.
Really? So those microbial fossils dated to over 3.5 billion years ago did not belong to a phyla? Absolutely remarkable!
You can mock all you want Behe’s definition of irreducible complexity but the glaring fact is that there is no obvious predecessor to any of the systems he described. The fact the Ken Miller had to point to a small sub-part of the bacterial flagellum as his only defense on how the flagellum wasn’t irreducible complex shows the weakness of the objections to Behe’s observations.
I don’t think it’s fair to refer to TTSS as a “small sub-part” of the flagellum. In addition, Nick Matzke has done some work tracking down evidence that individual proteins constituting the flagellum are all related to other proteins. Perhaps he would be kind enough to expound on that here.
I take it you don’t have any of that positive evidence for the actions of the designer that I’ve been asking for, and that’s why you cling so tightly to your arguments from ignorance.
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 10:55 am
What I find irrelevant and vacuous is all the quibbling over these definitions and the inability to find any good evidence to overcome the problem of the lack of predecessors. Those who defend the broad sweep of evolutionary biology seem to be playing a game of “Gotch you” trying to belittle the other side rather than seriously addressing the problems.
This thread is originally dedicated to the question of argument from analogy. Perhaps another thread should be addressed to the argument from ignorance, its logical weakness and its historic failure as the gaps of knowledge shrink.
Anyway, I found something by Matzke on the flagellum; I’m not sure if this is the exact piece I was thinking of or not:
Evolution in (Brownian) space: a model for the origin of the bacterial flagellum
Copyright 2003 by N. J. Matzke
Version 1.0 (last updated November 10, 2003)
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 11:25 am
another link on Flagellar origins:
Nick Matzke:
…
Meyer says, “the other thirty proteins in the flagellar motor (that are not present in the TTSS) are unique to the motor and are not found in any other living system.” This is flat-out mistaken, as Meyer would have known if he had read my survey of the peer-reviewed literature on the evolutionary origin of the flagellum. Off the top of my head, nonflagellar homologies have been documented — in the scientific literature, not by me — for the 2 motor proteins (MotAB) (see here), the 10 or so chemotaxis and MCP proteins, FlgA, FliA, the FlgJ C-terminal domain, the two master regulator genes FlhDC mentioned by Minnich in the paper, and FliK. Furthermore, FliM is essentially a fusion of another flagellum protein (FliN) and a chemotaxis protein (CheC), and all of the 11 or so flagellar axial proteins (rood, hook, flagellar filament, linkers, caps) are probably homologous to each other (the references for most of the proteins discussed can be found here, although I discovered a few of these homologies after that article was written). Altogether, there are very few flagellar proteins “unique to the motor” in Meyer’s sense, particularly if we throw in a few more that are probably homologous to each other (4 chaperones), those probably homologous to Type II secretion (FlgH, FlgI), and those that can be deleted with little or no obvious ill effect (FliL, FliE, FlgM).
…
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 11:29 am
J Cosgrove:
In my opinion, your comments in post #55, are, simply, infuriating. Your basic point, in my opinion, is that subjecting ideas to close scrutiny is akin to “belittling” an opponent. In this case, the whole concept of peer review should be tossed out. According to your thinking, we might also want to toss out our democratic form of government where ideas are debated in a rigorous manner! You have struck at the core of what ID truly represents, an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
You say, “What I find irrelevant and vacuous is all the quibbling over these definitions.” Can’t you see that because of Dembski’s unclear definition of CSI, the people debating this concept are having are hard time coming to a consensus! Is this bad for people to want to try and communicate clearly and effectively? Is finding a common understanding irrelevant and vacuous? PLEASE!!
Finally, in paragraph #3 and #5 you make some assertions with no supporting evidence. But wait! In paragraph #7 you complain about how you find science “irrelevant and vacuous” because of its “inability to find any good evidence to overcome the problem of the lack of predecessors.” So I guess a critical part of any argument that might sway you is actual evidence. Right? Then why do you provide none in paragraph #3 and #5?
Because you like actual evidence could you please provide some in regards to this claim you made: “There are no obvious predecessors to the first phyla, which appeared during the Cambrian Explosion.”
Please explain why this review I got off of Wikipedia of the Cambrian is wrong. Furthermore, explain why the introductory textbook written by Chernicoff, is also giving me bad information: Of the 20 metazoan phyla with extensive fossil records, at least 11 first appeared in the Cambrian. Of the remainder, one is known from Precambrian and the other eight from the Phanerozoic eon (Collins 1994). An additional 12 soft-bodied phyla have poorly defined fossil records, many of which are conjectured to be Cambrian in origin. Molecular evidence suggests that at least six animal phyla had established themselves as distinct evolutionary paths during the Precambrian (Wang et al. 1999).
Comment by Mike Hannigan — July 21, 2006 @ 11:29 am
J. Cosgrove:
I beg to differ. In order to untangle Dembski’s work, we have to start with well-defined and consistently-defined terms. So Sal’s request for a single formal definition is on track, but Dembski isn’t very helpful in this department.
Dembski’s latest work defines specification only in terms of rejection regions, patterns, descriptions, and compressed data, but Sal seems committed to the definition given in Figure 3.2 of NFL. (Note that Sal criticizes Shallit and us for not stating the “proper definition,” even though Dembski’s latest paper commits the same cardinal sin.) Let’s see how far that “formal definition” gets us:
The coincidence of conceptual and physical information… Dembski is vague on the distinction, but it seems that conceptual information must reside in the mind of an intelligent agent. If a computer compresses data, then the compressed data constitutes a specification according to some of Dembski’s definitions, but not according to this one. Which definition is correct?
…where the conceptual information is both identifiable independent of the physical information… What does it mean to identify conceptual information? And doesn’t Dembski mean that it should be independent according to a null hypothesis? After all, if we infer design, we’re concluding that the instances of information aren’t independent.
…and also complex. By “complex,” Dembski means improbable according to the null hypothesis. But what is the null hypothesis? Uniform chance? Some other distribution? Do we consider possible material mechanisms? If so, which ones? What about unknown mechanisms? Do we need to take into account the causal history? If so, how much of the causal history must be known in order for our complexity calculation to be valid?
These are not minor quibbles. In particular, the questions regarding complexity cut right to the heart of Hannah’s logical argument.
Comment by secondclass — July 21, 2006 @ 11:52 am
Relative to the Cambrian Explosion, I suggest interested people read appropriate sections of the book, “On the Origin of the Phyla” by James Valentine and also his review of pre-Cambrian fossils in “Prelude to the Cambrian Explosion.” This cite for the latter is
Annu. Rev. Earth Planet. Sci. 2002. 30:285–306
Only reason why I take such a stance is because James Valentine gave interviews, in which he stated what I have claimed and his writings are consistent with these claims. He doesn’t say that nothing existed prior to the Cambrian Explosion but that there is no clear prior link to the large disparity of body plans that appeared during a short time in the Cambrian period, which includes the first appearance of several different unique body plans including for example, several different types of eyes.
As far as the flagellum, I suggest the students read the various discussions and decide for themselves if they think an adequate path to its appearance existed.
While Wikipedia is a very informative source of information, it is not the final judge of anything.
Comment by J. Cosgrove — July 21, 2006 @ 12:27 pm
As far as the flagellum, I suggest the students read the various discussions and decide for themselves if they think an adequate path to its appearance existed.
And I reiterate my comment that your entire post consists of arguments from ignorance. I suggest that students familiarize themselves with the argument from ignorance, which is recognized as a logical fallacy. Familiarity with the argument from ignorance will go a long way towards understanding the case for ID, since there is no positive evidence for ID. At all. Whatsoever.
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 1:14 pm
There we go again with Valentine… Yes, I know he has been quoted as being in support of the ‘we don;t know’ theory but his latest book On the origin of Phyla puts all of this uncertainty at rest
The title of this book, modeled on that of the greatest biological work ever written, is in homage to the greatest biologist who has ever lived. Darwin himself puzzled over but could not cover the ground that is reviewed here, simply because the relevant fossils, genes, and their molecules, end even the body plans of many of the phyla, were quite unknown in his day. Nevertheless, the evidence from these many additional souces of data simply confirm that Darwin was correct in his conclusions that all living things have descended from a commmon anscestor and can be placed within a tree of life, and that the principle process guiding their descent has been natural selection.
Recent findings, both fossils as well as phylogenetic data have reduced the miracle of the Cambrian, therefor destroying any hopes for ID.
It’s once again obvious that science is doing the hard work and ID is remaining empty handed.
Just ask yourself:
How does ID explain the Cambrian, the flagellum?
Have you ever wondered why such questions are answered by a long silence?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
Sal points out that, quoting Behe:
Substantive objections are bypassed. Irrelevancies are stressed…. Misrepresentations abound
Yes, I myself have found how claims, when asked to be supported, remain unaddressed, how discussions are being redirected when answers are lacking.
I could not agree more with Sal here… So when do we get to see some support for the claims?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
Cosgrave: There are no obvious predecessors to the first cell. There are no obvious predecessors to the first phyla, which appeared during the Cambrian Explosion. There are no obvious predecessors to a large percentage of the life forms that have been found in the fossil record. There are no obvious predecessors to the body systems that Behe pointed to.
Anyone even vaguely familiar or uptodate with present scientific literature would quickly come to the realization that Cosgrave’s claims are erroneous and contradicted by fact. In fact precambrian precursors have been documented both in fossil records as well as in phylogenetic data.
Unfamiliarity is no excuse for vacuity. If Cosgrave is interested, I am more than willing and able to provide references to support my claims.
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:20 pm
As to mocking Behe and Dembski, you misunderstand the issues. Behe and Dembski have pretended that a solid (mathematical) foundation exists to infer design. What we are showing is that this foundation is neither mathematical nor solid.
Cosgrave’s redirection away from the devastating flaws in ID’s foundation to more standard creationist claims shows how ID is retreating to its creationist origins whenever challenged. Even Dembski has returned to his old love of ‘apologetics’ it seems… If ID were so fruitful scientifically, how come we are not shown any relevant examples of such? Now I am not saying that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, as I am unwilling to make the same errors found in ID but I am also willing to argue that the basic premises of ID allow for no scientific relevance, either as a theory or meta-theory.
any takers?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
Leonid:
But Leonid, the definition of ‘independence’ is given right there in the formal definition:
Complex Specified Information:
The coincidence of conceptual and physical information where the conceptual information is both identifiable independently of the physical information and also complex.
Comment by Lino D'Ischia — July 21, 2006 @ 1:40 pm
Lino, that’s not a formal definition in the sense that’s useful in mathematics. Since the arguments are essentially mathematical (probability-based), we need something to chew on using mathematical methods.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 21, 2006 @ 1:50 pm
Valentine in Prelude to the Cambrian Explosion Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Sciences Vol. 30: 285-306 (Volume publication date May 2002)
The Prelude began with the origin of Metazoa, perhaps between 720 and 660 million years ago (mya), and ended with the geologically abrupt appearance of crown bilaterian phyla that began between 530 and 520 mya. The origin and early evolution of phyla cannot be tracked by fossils during this interval, but molecular phylogenetics permits reconstruction of their branching topology, whereas molecular developmental evidence supports hypotheses for the evolution of the metzoan genome during the rise of complex bodyplans. A flexible architecture of genetic regulation was in place even before the appearance of crown sponges, permitting increases in gene expression events as bodyplan complexity rose. Neoproterozoic bilaterians were chiefly small-bodied but likely diverse, whereas in the earliest Cambrian, between 543 and approximately 530–520 mya, bodies that were complex by marine invertebrate standards evolved in association with body-size increases.
Seems quite clear
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:55 pm
I could repeat my postings on the evolution on the eye and how science suggests a monophylic origin rather than the independent origins of eyes, again based on hard scientific research, contradicting much of the earlier claims that eyes were polyphyletic. In other words, the basic building blocks can be traced back to a common ancestral state.
How come ID has failed to incorporate these facts of science?
Comment by PvM — July 21, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
J Cosgrove,
One of my earlier posts to you was held up in the spam queue. I just wanted to thank you, and give you a link to a good article by Bill Dembski.
regards,
Salvador
PS
Lino, thank you also.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
PvM, you forgot the last sentence of the paragraph in the preface of Valentine’s book that you quote. It is
“And he was correct in so much more”
So we can say that Valentine is a believer in natural selection and Darwin’s ideas. But then Valentine has made some other statements about the Cambrian Explosion and Darwin. There are several but I will repeat the one I mentioned before.
“Darwin had a lot of trouble with the fossil record because if you look at the record of phyla in the rocks as fossils why when they first appear we already see them all. The phyla are fully formed. It’s as if the phyla were created first and they were modified into classes and we see that the number of classes peak later than the number of phyla and the number of orders peak later than that. So it’s kind of a top down succession, you start with this basic body plans, the phyla, and you diversify them into classes, the major sub-divisions of the phyla, and these into orders and so on. So the fossil record is kind of backwards from what you would expect from in that sense from what you would expect from Darwin’s ideas. Although once we get into the fossil record where we got a complete fossil record we can see the gradual changes within lineages as Darwin predicted.”
So which is the real James Valentine? I say they both are and that he is saying that Darwin’s ideas of slow gradual diversification of species are not supported by what first appeared during the Cambrian Explosion but only what appeared later in the fossil record.
Your quote from his review is based on a speculative approach of trying to predict origins from molecular DNA data from today while his statement above is based on what has been found in the fossil record. Note the quote you provided, “The origin and early evolution of phyla cannot be tracked by fossils during this interval.”
Thank you for making my point.
Comment by J. Cosgrove — July 21, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
Yes, and Shallit was Dembski’s teacher and helped Dembski get a PhD, and Shallit is now less famous than his former student. Indeed, I salute Shallit.
But, back to Hannah’s post, does anyone else have something to say about analogies? The scientific method would not succeed without analogical reasoning.
We assume an atom is analogous to another atom, that is only by assumption. If one threw away analogical reasoning, one may as well dump all of science.
Salvador
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 2:17 pm
Sal,
Thank you for your link. I have watched the backlash for several years now. It only convinces me even more that “they really don’t have anything” or else why the mis-representation. hostility and disdain. If it was so obvious, they would present it and it would dissolve opposition through the weight of their arguments. Instead they proffer sleight of hand experts like Dawkins.
I was in academia for several years and one of my colleagues said that the egos of those in academia are more important than anywhere else because they are not in the real world so it is all they have. Heated arguments over minutiae in faculty meetings were legend. So while this topic is not strictly an academic only issue, it has the same feel.
Comment by J. Cosgrove — July 21, 2006 @ 2:44 pm
We assume an atom is analogous to another atom, that is only by assumption.
Only by assumption? So you’re saying there’s no experimentation involved in that assessment?
So then where are the experimental results showing that a flagellum is like a mousetrap or a watch?
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 2:46 pm
Salvador, you misspelled infamous. ;-)
WRT Hannah’s original post, Allen is correct in stating that arguments from analogy alone are specious. Along with the analogy, it must also be shown that there is a logical connection between the properties in question. (Unless you’re making a purely statistical argument, in which case you need a statistically significant set of data.)
I see two problems with Behe’s response:
1. He shifts the burden of demonstrating that logical connection: “To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain.”
2. He begs the question in stating that the functional complexity of cellular machinery is “born of a purposeful arrangement of parts.”
And, of course, we still have the fundamental problem that no IDer has defined design in a way that’s meaningful and doesn’t entail an empty set.
Also, WRT Hannah’s specific inductive argument, we have already noted that some definitions of SC and IC render the premise of the induction tautological. Hannah needs to tell us what definitions she’s using.
Comment by secondclass — July 21, 2006 @ 3:02 pm
Well here is one for Allen’s side of the argument about the possible frailty of analogies.
Are Atoms Real?
Just to show I’ll occasionally give considerations to the other side of the argument. :=)
Atoms are analogies to our conceptions, since analogies can be faulty, we should consider rejecting them.
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
And 100+ years ago, when that piece you posted was written, perhaps it was reasonable to so argue.
But, just in case you haven’t noticed, physics has marched on.
For instance, we can actually take pictures of atoms, making them rather difficult to reject.
Comment by Don Baccus — July 21, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
More analgous reasonings:
Challenging Particle Physics as Path to Truth
Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — July 21, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
Lino wrote:
As Don was kind enough to point out, the above definition is not formal, but conceptual. That said, I think I was wrong in the previous post, and Shallit’s formal definition of CSI captures Dembski’s stipulation of independence quite nicely.
My initial impression was that Dembski used the term “independently” in the same sense that it is used in probability theory: i.e. events A and B are independent if knowing that A occurred does not alter the probability of B and vice versa. However, upon re-reading, it appears that Dembski’s use of the term isn’t mathematical at all: he is simply saying that the “conceptual information” (i.e. pattern) and the “physical information” (i.e. physical event) are separate, unrelated entities. That is precisely captured by Shallit’s ordered (T,E) pair formulation.
So thank you for helping me spot my error, Lino. I’m sure Salvador is equally appreaciative now that he’s been shown that Shallit did not misrepresent Dembski after all.
Comment by Leonid Meyerguz — July 21, 2006 @ 4:33 pm
6. Hannah quotes Behe,
…
Actually, Judge Jones did exactly this:
…
I note that although Hannah started this thread, she has not put in an appearance since. Hannah: Several posts, such as #6, claim to be direct responses to portions of your opening posts. Do you consider them to be convincing; and if not, why not?
Comment by ivy privy — July 21, 2006 @ 4:43 pm
Let’s remember the very name, “natural selection”, comes from an analogy: “artifical selection.” Darwin was very much influenced in his ideas about ‘descent with modification’ by his exposure to breeders and his own work with pigeons.
NS is, thus, an analogy.
Hannah, in her reply to Allen, included this quote of Michael Behe from his response to Kitzmiller:
“Cellular machines and machines in our everyday world share a relevant property — their functional complexity, born of a purposeful arrangement of parts — and so inductive conclusions to design can be drawn on the basis of that shared property.
Darwin was correct–to some degree–in the analogy he drew from the morphological changes he had seen ‘breeders’ bring about; that is, we know that to some extent so-called ‘microevolution’ occurs in nature. He was correct precisely because there was a valid parallel between the morphological ‘variability’ of species found ‘in nature’ and that of ‘domestic’ species, and, between elimination of certain forms made by ‘breeder’s’ and those of ‘natural selection’.
Courtesy of modern science, there is now a similar parallel between the ‘mechanical complexity’ of man-made machines and the ‘cellular complexity’ of living cells.
ID accepts the validity (some unconditionally; others, like me, conditionally) of ‘microevolution’. As an explanation of so-called ‘macroevolution, ID now proposes the ‘design inference’ as a valid analogy.
Darwinists, however, not only accept Darwin’s ‘analogy’ wholeheartedly, they proclaim it as a ‘fact’, while, at the same time, denying any validity to ID’s ‘analogy’.
Finally, after comparing machines and cells, Behe then adds:“To call an induction into doubt one has to show that dissimilarities make a relevant difference to the property one wishes to explain. Neither the